Shrouds of the Somme

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

One for each of the 19,240 soldiers who died today 100 years ago

[Fussbudget]

Shrouds of the Somme

Nice to see that, just like for the poppy display at the Tower of London, only the British dead are worth remembering.

[Calvert]

Shrouds of the Somme

Poor bastards.

It's all about the SACRIFICE for US, ULSTER and more SACRIFICE for US and a bit more ULSTER, here today.

And still, no one to this day ever dares lay the blame for this at the proper doors. That'd be disloyal.

[Diable Rouge]

Shrouds of the Somme

Calvert wrote: Poor bastards.

It's all about the SACRIFICE for US, ULSTER and more SACRIFICE for US and a bit more ULSTER, here today.

And still, no one to this day ever dares lay the blame for this at the proper doors. That'd be disloyal.

Yes, observe the sons of Ulster, as the play urges us. There must have been plenty of sons of Munster, Leinstee and Connacht marching also, but the attitude of the Republic demonstrates modern ambivalence - President Higgins is in attendance, but the absence of the Taoiseach shows that none of the political parties feel a genuine connection to the event.

[Central Rain]

Shrouds of the Somme

Fussbudget wrote: Nice to see that, just like for the poppy display at the Tower of London, only the British dead are worth remembering.

In this instance, a focus on the British dead is not unreasonable. It was quite simply the worst day in the history of the country, as far as the number of dead is concerned.

[Fussbudget]

Shrouds of the Somme

But if the purpose is to make you reflect on the horror and futility of war, separating the dead on the basis of their country or which side they fought on rather defeats the point.

[Guy Profumo]

Shrouds of the Somme

Central Rain wrote:

Nice to see that, just like for the poppy display at the Tower of London, only the British dead are worth remembering.

In this instance, a focus on the British dead is not unreasonable. It was quite simply the worst day in the history of the country, as far as the number of dead is concerned.

Did the Newfoundland Regiment not turn up then, or were they not fighting as part of the British Army after all?

And while we're on the subject, surely if we're focussing on the battle, shouldn't we be at least acknowledging our allies in this campaign, the French?

Because I always thought they were involved in the Battle of the Somme too.

And what FB said.

[Gangster Octopus]

Shrouds of the Somme

The French were being killed in the mincing machine of Verdun. The Somme offensive was supposed to take pressure off for France by redirecting the Germans.

[Guy Profumo]

Shrouds of the Somme

Gangster Octopus wrote: The French were being killed in the mincing machine of Verdun. The Somme offensive was supposed to take pressure off for France by redirecting the Germans.

Exactly.

It was part of the same campaign - which had started in the late winter - which was enacted to divert German troops away from the Meuse.

But the French were involved in attacks along the Somme too.

[Jah Womble]

Shrouds of the Somme

Factually, Central Rain is correct in that it 'was' the worst day for British casualties. However, the focus should by now have been extended to all those devastated by what happened. Not many of those poor f*ckers had much choice in what happened to them.

(Surprised that today's memorial hasn't been hijacked more by those celebrating Brexit. I s'pose there's still time...)

[Central Rain]

Shrouds of the Somme

[Edit - written in response to FB and before any of the replies in between]

I don't think that is the sole purpose. The first day on the Somme had a psychological impact in the UK (and Newfoundland) that it didn't have in either France or Germany. As well as being the bloodiest single day of the war for the British forces, it was also the first battle fought predominantly by the volunteer New Armies. It hit particular communities very hard in a way that didn't happen with most other battles.

Obviously "remembrance" means different things to different people but it isn't always about learning lessons or celebrating sacrifice or whatever. Sometimes it's just a matter of remembering the loss, whatever you may think of the war that caused it.

[Central Rain]

Shrouds of the Somme

If you're talking about commemoration of the First World War as a whole, then of course it should be about remembering all of the dead. If you are talking about this one day, then the focus on the British attack is appropriate (for the reasons stated above).

[Gangster Octopus]

Shrouds of the Somme

Central Rain wrote: It was quite simply the worst day in the history of the country, as far as the number of dead is concerned.

Towton.

[Central Rain]

Shrouds of the Somme

Gangster Octopus wrote:

It was quite simply the worst day in the history of the country, as far as the number of dead is concerned.

Towton.

The numbers for Towton are probably exaggerated.

[Calvert]

Shrouds of the Somme

Yay! Mo' militarism!

Some sergeant-major type has just screamed something incomprehensible standing in front of a load of armed men in uniform with the holy men watching on.

This is insanity.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Shrouds of the Somme

Indeed. My Grandad who spent 5 years in the jungles of SE Asia fighting the Japanese always said that the professional army should not be allowed anywhere near a WWI or WWII commemoration. They love it don't they? All this blood sacrifice shit.

[Glass Half Empty]

Shrouds of the Somme

Je Suis Womble wrote: Factually, Central Rain is correct in that it 'was' the worst day for British casualties. However, the focus should by now have been extended to all those devastated by what happened. Not many of those poor f*ckers had much choice in what happened to them.

(Surprised that today's memorial hasn't been hijacked more by those celebrating Brexit. I s'pose there's still time...)

One of the many points of all of this is that in fact the vast majority of the British Empire casualties did have a choice, they were predominantly a volunteer army unlike the French or the Germans.

[Glass Half Empty]

Shrouds of the Somme

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[Glass Half Empty]

Shrouds of the Somme

Guy Profumeau wrote:

Nice to see that, just like for the poppy display at the Tower of London, only the British dead are worth remembering.

In this instance, a focus on the British dead is not unreasonable. It was quite simply the worst day in the history of the country, as far as the number of dead is concerned.

Did the Newfoundland Regiment not turn up then, or were they not fighting as part of the British Army after all?

And while we're on the subject, surely if we're focussing on the battle, shouldn't we be at least acknowledging our allies in this campaign, the French?

Because I always thought they were involved in the Battle of the Somme too.

And what FB said.

Hollande was at the ceremony although it would appear to be a bit of an afterthought so his absence wouldn't have been interpreted as a snub. Historically this commemoration has not been attended by the mighty of France who's national narrative has been better served by the heroics of Verdun rather than the battle of the Somme.

[Geoffrey de Ste. Croix]

Shrouds of the Somme

The last act of the Battle of the Somme was another episode of insane, doomed bravery.

Despite having captured the strategic village of Beaumont Hamel, the British had not taken two defensive trenches (Munich trench and Frankfurt trench) which would have jeopardized their hold of the village.

An attack on the trenches was launched by the 32nd Division on 18th November in driving sleet and snow. Despite the main attack being repulsed with heavy casualties three sections of a Boys Brigade 'Glasgow Pals' division made it into the Frankfurt trench where they met up with a small party of the 11th Border Regiment who had also made it.

As they successfully entered the trench, the attack was called off and they were now trapped in the German trench. Despite having no water, very little food and only four working Lewis guns, the 100 men decided to seal each end of their captured trench section and fight it out.

For seven days, they fought and repulsed wave after wave of German attack. The Germans also found POW’s from the men’s Pals battalions who they sent to the front of the action to call to the men to give up. They didn’t. It was only on the afternoon of the 25th November that the Germans burst through the defences to find only 15 able-bodied men standing, 30 wounded and the rest dead. Thus ended the Battle of the Somme.

[NickSTFU]

Shrouds of the Somme

Geoffrey de Ste. Croix wrote: Indeed. My Grandad who spent 5 years in the jungles of SE Asia fighting the Japanese always said that the professional army should not be allowed anywhere near a WWI or WWII commemoration. They love it don't they? All this blood sacrifice shit.

5 years?

But,no, no one in the forces 'loves' this. Unless they are slightly un-hinged.

[Lang Spoon]

Shrouds of the Somme

Maybe kept on for the Malay emergency?

[Calvert]

Shrouds of the Somme

I imagine Geoffrey is talking about the politicians, Royals and army brass, Nick, not the poor saps who paid with their lives.

[Lang Spoon]

Shrouds of the Somme

https://t.co/QUO8az2Cby

Enjoyed this on Germany, sailor revolts and 1918. But it is Mason, can't help feeling its a bit too simple and pat.

[NickSTFU]

Shrouds of the Somme

Ok fine, but it's that term again 'they'.

But, look I'm against national myth building and collective rememberance as the next sane person, but CR has a point about the context of the volunteer army and the Pals Battalions.

And this is about the first day, in fact really about the first few hours.