Clash of the Titians

[Tubby Isaacs]

The Duke of Sutherland wants to sell two of his Titians which have been on loan to the nation for 60 years. The asking price, £50 million for one of them by 31 December and another £50 million for the second in 4 years time. If the nation buys them he will extend the loan of the rest of his collection by another 21 years- this includes Raphaels and a great Rembrandt.

Relatively speaking, I think this is a good deal. The Titians are likely to be worth 3 times as much on the open market. It's galling to see this very rich man get richer but on the other hand he's been more public spirited than most of his ilk, and those are the people who own art. He also sold a Titian to the nation at an £8 million discount 5 years ago.

I also can't see any attempt to force the issue working. Italy has pretty strict laws about cultural objects leaving but the Duke is likely to withdraw his collection from public galleries if leaned on too heavily. Or indeed wait for the Tories to come to power where he can cash in.

Apparently Andy Burnham is sympathetic to public money being used. But no doubt in typical New Labour fashion this won't be new money, and I'm shrinking from the cuts in grass roots that will bring about.

What say you?

[DCI Harry Batt]

Clash of the Titians

Take them off him. Or let him sell them, then take them off the buyer. And confiscate the proceeds.

Is there any reason why these paintings are better for being in one place rather than another?

[San Bernardhinault]

Clash of the Titians

Is there ever any reason to "save a painting for the nation"? In this case it's lent out to public viewing, but not always. Is it really better to have a painting in the UK rarely seen rather than in the US or Germany or Japan on permanent display?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

A free market buyer is not likely to put them out for display very often. I agree it would be absurd to get in a bidding war with the Louvre or the National Gallery in Washington. Part of the justification for paying this price is that public art collections are all in it together, and this is doing our bit. All of them are likely to be held over a barrel like this, so if they feel an obligation to each other, the public gets more than these two paintings for the money.

As I said, given the likelihood of Tories wiping out any legislation, the Duke is holding most of the cards.

[Guest]

Clash of the Titians

Alternative title: Cash for the Titians.

They should mimic Liverpool's transfer policy where they have to sell before they can buy.

[Guest]

Clash of the Titians

That's a lot of dosh for a pair of Titians.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

They're the best in Britain. The only comparable one is Bacchus and Ariadne in the National Gallery in London.

I made the Duke sound better than he was up there. He's only had the title for a few years and in the meantime has already sold one painting his ancestors didn't sell. But the booming art market is too much of a temptation.

[San Bernardhinault]

Clash of the Titians

So there are three £100m paintings in the country by Titian alone? Christ, Gordon Brown could pay off most of the national debt just by claiming them for the state and flogging them to Americans.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

The Duke of Sutherland's overall collection is estimated at £1 billion now. The Queen has some Titians. Maybe she's like to buy these as well.

"American businessmen snap up Van Goghs for the price of a hospital wing"

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

Apparently fund raising for this is going well. I reckon this campaign photo which has v little in common with the painting helped:



What's wrong with being sexy?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7863635.stm

Get in!

According to an MP called Ian Davidson, it's obscene for the Scottish government to have tributed to the campaign because most people think Titian's a footballer.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Clash of the Titians

The Duke of Sutherland's ancestors got their money through the fucking Highland clearances. A more disgusting and disreputable family history it's hard to imagine.

I think the British public should finally repay the compliment. Let's storm his estate and kick the bastard out onto the streets. With pitchforks.

[nefertiti]

Clash of the Titians

I think this is completely outrageous. The price is only dependent on his being able to secure an export licence. He shouldn't be allowed one.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Clash of the Titians

He could no doubt have obtained much more than £50 million in this country. Also he's in a very strong position in that he owns loads of other paintings to the Scottish National Gallery (the so-called Bridgewater Collection) and could simply withdraw them. Other such loaners of paintings might do the same in sympathy with him.

At another level it can be seen as a very good investment for the state too. Lots of very rich people buy old masters for that reason. The issue, given the timing, is cash flow, but £40 million isn't really all that much, given the other considerations.

[Rabbitoh]

Clash of the Titians

I'm glad that the painting's been 'saved' for the nation but what Rogin said and then some. That cunt should be seriously named and shamed.