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  • beak
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    it is unbecoming of an englishman.

    i mean, that's why we have immigrants in the first place, isn't it? so someone else can get paint on their "jeans".

    Leave a comment:


  • TonTon
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Having paint on ones jeans does seem to be a bit of an issue for you. Would you like to talk about it?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundeporino
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Some builders do. But ones with no paper trails to be followed certainly wont. Language school visa holders covered in paint and concrete dust especially.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tubby Isaacs
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    I'm assuming the extra 15 million people by 2060 aren't all black market builders.

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  • Gangster Octopus
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Builders don't pay tax.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tubby Isaacs
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Broken Clock, I've no idea what your on about.

    Leave a comment:


  • dalliance
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    I read The Times every day and I find it pretty centrist with its politics.

    I don't mind Rod Liddle, he's unabashedly populist but he is quite entertaining over quite a range of different subjects he contributes to.

    McIlvaney is boring, he's been treading water for decades and is just there because he's still a name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kowalski
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Not everywhere in Briatin is full to the brim.

    http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2008/08/26/thousands-of-empty-homes-north-wales-55578-21602390/

    Leave a comment:


  • WOM
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Tubby: I work in the construction industry in London and if anyone thinks more than a miniscule amount of the "immigrants" in paint and concrete splattered boots travelling on the tube contribute to the UK pension system then their absolutely fuckin insane....or naive.
    Anyone seen my red editing pen?

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  • Ginger Yellow
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    In the last few years (since Labour took over), they have tried to be as liberal as possible
    Blairite, not liberal.

    Not to be all Daily Mail, but have any economists worked out what an ideal "immigration rate" is?
    It's a pretty common topic of study, as I understand, but it's not really the sort of economics I have any specialist knowledge of, so I can't be much help pointing you in the right direction. You might want to search the archives of some economics blogs for links to papers.

    But it seems like an economy can only grow so fast, so it makes sense (to me at least) that there's a rate of immigration + birth which will add people to the labor force faster than industry can grow to find jobs for them all.
    Well, the main constraints on ecomic growth in developed ecomies are usually population growth, domestic demand, money supply (incl foreign investment) and exports. While there is of course a certain amount of inelasticity in the labour market, I think economists feel it's more a question of the time and money it takes to retool workers to do new jobs (to replace the ones they've been displaced from by immigrants) than the time it takes to create them. Not sure I agree myself, but that's the theory, I believe.

    Edited to clarify argument.

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  • Sundeporino
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Tubby: I work in the construction industry in London and if anyone thinks more than a miniscule amount of the "immigrants" in paint and concrete splattered boots travelling on the tube contribute to the UK pension system then their absolutely fuckin insane....or naive.

    Leave a comment:


  • linus
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    With half of the Netherlands under water due to the rise in sea levels by 2060, their projected density should be even higher...

    Leave a comment:


  • anton pulisov
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Wow, the figures for the percentage of people aged 80 and over in 2060 are pretty high.

    Looks like I'll have plenty of company.

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  • anton pulisov
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    The figures are here.

    A quick calculation tells me that the density of The Netherlands in 2060 will be 400 persons/km2, Belgium 402 persons/km2, and the UK 313 persons/km2.

    So nobody in the press seems to understand the meaning of the word "crowded."

    Leave a comment:


  • Incandenza
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    There was a NYT Magazine article back in June about declining birth rates in Europe.

    I went in to reading the article with a lot of skepticism--expecting a hint of "more white babies good" and anti-immigrant attitude--but it's worth a read. One suggestion is that countries where women have greater rights and opportunities in the workplace, and where social welfare systems are stronger--Scandinavian and other northern European countries--have higher birthrates than countries with stereotypes of big families--like Italy and Greece:

    The accepted demographic wisdom had been that as women enter the job market, a society’s fertility rate drops. That has been broadly true in the developed world, but more recently, and especially in Europe, the numbers don’t bear it out. In fact, something like the opposite has been the case. According to Hans-Peter Kohler of the University of Pennsylvania, analysis of recent studies showed that “high fertility was associated with high female labor-force participation . . . and the lowest fertility levels in Europe since the mid-1990s are often found in countries with the lowest female labor-force participation.” In other words, working mothers are having more babies than stay-at-home moms.

    How can this be? A study released in February of this year by Letizia Mencarini, the demographer from the University of Turin, and three of her colleagues compared the situation of women in Italy and the Netherlands. They found that a greater percentage of Dutch women than Italian women are in the work force but that, at the same time, the fertility rate in the Netherlands is significantly higher (1.73 compared to 1.33). In both countries, people tend to have traditional views about gender roles, but Italian society is considerably more conservative in this regard, and this seems to be a decisive difference. The hypothesis the sociologists set out to test was borne out by the data: women who do more than 75 percent of the housework and child care are less likely to want to have another child than women whose husbands or partners share the load. Put differently, Dutch fathers change more diapers, pick up more kids after soccer practice and clean up the living room more often than Italian fathers; therefore, relative to the population, there are more Dutch babies than Italian babies being born. As Mencarini said, “It’s about how much the man participates in child care.”

    The broad answer to the “Where are all the European babies?” question thus begins to suggest itself. Accompanying the spectacular transformation of modern society since the 1960s — notably the changing role of women, with greater opportunities for education and employment, the advent of modern birth control and a new ability to tailor a lifestyle — has been a tension between forces that, in many places, have not been reconciled. That tension is perfectly apparent, of course. Ask any working mother. But some societies have done a better job than others of reconciling the conflicting forces. In Europe, many countries with greater gender equality have a greater social commitment to day care and other institutional support for working women, which gives those women the possibility of having second or third children.

    Leave a comment:


  • linus
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    If we're going to include Malta in the European density rankings, then Monaco will have to be there too. 16,000 people per km square...

    AB, it's true that people are starting families later, but that's the same pattern in France, where the birthrate is much higher than in Germany or Italy. France now has passed Ireland as the country with the highest birthrate in Europe, it is comfortably above replenishment rate.

    The shift towards starting families later occured in the 80s and 90s, and now the women that waited then are having children so you're seeing a rise in the birthrate now as the delay is accounted for.

    I think there are cultural issues at play here. France has more of a new traditionalist culture which prizes families and raising children, whereas in Italy, Quebec or Germany people have become a little more individualistic and their population less prone to define itself as part of a family.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tubby Isaacs
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    That's all right, Gero.

    I didn't notice many kids in Prenzlauer Berg when I went there.

    But why so little immigration from the rest of the EU?

    Leave a comment:


  • WOM
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    A quick google shows that it's already the third highest in Europe (244 per km2) after the Netherlands (393) and Belgium (337).

    England already has 383
    We have 3 people per square km.
    And I still can't get any peace and quiet....

    Leave a comment:


  • Reed John
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Not to be all Daily Mail, but have any economists worked out what an ideal "immigration rate" is? I mean, I understand that immigration doesn't "steal jobs" because more people means more demand and that means more jobs to be had. But it seems like an economy can only grow so fast, so it makes sense (to me at least) that there's a rate of immigration + birth which will add people to the labor force faster than industry can grow to find jobs for them all.

    It seems like if we could figure that out, maybe it could be worked into immigration policy somehow.

    I dunno. Just a thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gerontophile
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    I retract that... I have re-read... sorry Tubby.

    I think... well I think lots of things, but occasionally I see something which pisses me off. I misread. Sorry.

    Leave a comment:


  • Alderman Barnes
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    Tubby Isaacs wrote:
    You're still stuck with us.

    AB, what explains the German population drop?
    Joking aside (we Germans don't do jokes), the answer is probably not enough shagging and immigration.

    To be honest, though, I'm stumped as to why the birth rate should be so low here compared to other western European countries. Going by my own experience, it's a pretty good place to have kids, partially due to measures brought in to stop the decline.

    The drop in the birth rate in eastern Germany is easy to explain, being down to economic uncertainty and the fact that large swathes of it are becoming depopulated anyway as everyone has had to move west to look for work. They had a comparatively high birth rate in the GDR. They also started early: I know quite a few Ossis of my age who have grown-up kids. In addition, they had very comprehensive child-care facilities over there. Even now, very few children in western states are guaranteed a kindergarden place.

    My guess is that it takes so long before people finish their studies or apprenticeships and are in a position to start a family. I'm forty now with one kid and I don't think we could go through all the hassle of having another one now. I suspect a lot of people are in the same boat.

    There are some exceptions. Soon after the wall came down, the Prenzlauer Berg area of East Berlin was taken over by Wessi students in their twenties. Now that these people are in their thirties and forties and quite prosperous, the place is absolutely teeming with kids.

    Leave a comment:


  • Gerontophile
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    erm Tubbs, not quoting, but you said better than other right wing papers. You dont have to prove yourself, but, if you have read lots (of right wing papers), or indeed, you think that I am taking the piss, please say so.

    You open the door, you see the light, you walk toward it.

    (on the other thread, I agree and disagree, but here, you are being honest. Which is nice. Honesty is lovely)

    Leave a comment:


  • Eggchaser
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    We get it at woerk and my father-in-law gets The Sunday Times so I often read it. It does have excellent sports coverage. Beats the shit out of The Observer for rugby coverage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Banana Banana
    replied
    Crowded Britain

    It's all a bit silly this overcrowding business. What does it mean? We have less farms than France - so what? We are an industrial nation. We can fit 8m people into London's 609 square miles. Which is less than 0.7% of the UK area.

    On the same density as London we could support a population of 1.3 Billion people, halfway between the populations of India and China.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Crowded Britain

    gerontophile wrote:
    Are we talking about the 'English' Times, HoH?
    Yes -- the Sunday Times has an Irish edition (i.e. it's the same paper with about 10 pages of Irish content in the news section, another five or six pages of it in the sport section, a few more in the Culture magazine, and an Irish-oriented property supplement).

    Leave a comment:

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