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    Rousseff impeachment

    Discontent against the Brazilian government has been growing steadily since the World Cup protests, but President Rousseff today awaits an impeachment vote from the Chamber of Deputies, after being linked to a corruption scandal. The President served on the board of the state oil company, Petrobras, along with her predecessor, Lula, at the time when the company reportedly gave politicians bribes in return for lucrative contracts. Two-thirds of the Assembly would have to vote in favour for the impeachment vote to pass, but regardless of the outcome, the main opposition party, the Brazilian Social Democratic Party would appear poised for victory in any putative presidential election.

    #2
    Rousseff impeachment

    I heard something about Vice-President Michel Temer of the coalition party, who'd succeed Rouseff, also facing possible impeachment. What has become of that?

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      #3
      Rousseff impeachment

      If you consider how Brazil was in 15 years ago to how it is now, if Dilma is removed by impeachment then it will be a tragic end to what has generally been the transformation of completely corrupt and broken country. Now it merely appears as corrupt as most other countries, which is a huge improvement.

      In my opinion, this is a witch hunt because the oil stakes are so high in Brazil it is vital for the world's power mongers that it controlled by the centre-right. Finance and media is controlled by Brazilians of European descent, typically of the right or centre-right, they've exposed these corruption stories against Lula and Dilma and they've mobilised the Brazilian middle and upper classes to protest against Dilma. It's a complete power grab.

      One thing to notice with these protests for impeachment, where are the black or mixed-race faces on these protests? This is an awful end to largely positive change. The country should go to the polls and have an election, let the people decide - if they did this, I really believe Dilma would be re-elected.

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        #4
        Rousseff impeachment

        1. She's a lefty with politics we like.
        2. Other people used to be even more corrupt 15 years ago.
        3. Only relatively prosperous white people are making a big fuss about this corruption.

        That's the case for the defence?

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          #5
          Rousseff impeachment

          It's a good case actually, your oversimplification notwithstanding, I agree with Stevee.

          Brazil and most of South America have somewhat benefited from the focus of American foreign policy having been strongly concentrated on the Middle East and the invasion of Iraq, this gave them a bit of a breather and room to grow independently. Hope they retain some of that independence in years to come.

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            #6
            Rousseff impeachment

            Independence from whom? China's made big strides here while the US has had its gaze focussed elsewhere.

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              #7
              Rousseff impeachment

              Dilma' camp admits they will lose in the lower house.

              The number of people claiming that they are voting for impeachment because of God or Family is striking and distressing in equal measure.

              Tim Vickery is not hiding his contempt on Twitter.

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                #8
                Rousseff impeachment

                Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: 1. She's a lefty with politics we like.
                2. Other people used to be even more corrupt 15 years ago.
                3. Only relatively prosperous white people are making a big fuss about this corruption.

                That's the case for the defence?
                When the other side includes Jair Bolsonaro who dedicated his impeachment vote to the officer in charge of the unit that tortured Rousseff when she was fighting against the military dictatorship then yes.

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                  #9
                  Rousseff impeachment

                  Sam wrote: Independence from whom? China's made big strides here while the US has had its gaze focussed elsewhere.
                  The difference is China doesn't meddle with your politics.

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                    #10
                    Rousseff impeachment

                    Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: 1. She's a lefty with politics we like.
                    2. Other people used to be even more corrupt 15 years ago.
                    3. Only relatively prosperous white people are making a big fuss about this corruption.

                    That's the case for the defence?
                    Well, there is no valid case because the predominantly white judiciary are as much as a problem as the media and the billionaire vultures circling around Brazil's oil industry right now.

                    I'd forgotten about the rise in Christianity of the most mental kind among more affluent Brazilians in the last couple of decades, which could potentially make Brazil a great lapdog for any Republican US president.

                    There is no crisis in Brazil at the scale that deserves this destruction of an elected parliament that has been the most positive and progressive Brazil has experienced.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Rousseff impeachment

                      Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: 1. She's a lefty with politics we like.
                      2. Other people used to be even more corrupt 15 years ago.
                      3. Only relatively prosperous white people are making a big fuss about this corruption.

                      That's the case for the defence?
                      The we here is a rhetorical we, I presume...

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                        #12
                        Rousseff impeachment

                        I watched last night's vote in Congress unfold and it was a grotesque spectacle. It was presided over by Eduardo Cunha who has hidden away millions in his Swiss bank accounts. Everyone recognises and acknowledges that he is corrupt and yet he is second in line after Temer (should he also be impeached) to assume the Presidency. Occasionally, PT and PSOL deputies would hurl abuse at him but a comfortable majority voted to impeach including Jair Bolsonaro (a future candidate in 2018) who dedicated his vote to a torturer in the former military dictatorship.

                        Steveee is right that great strides were made under Lula and Dilma's first term. Programmes such as Zero Fome and the Bolsa Familia lifted millions out of poverty but these redistributive policies were only possible while the economy was booming. It had begun to slow down even before the crash in commodity prices as an overvalued exchange rate, persistent inflation and high interest rates began to take their toll.

                        Meanwhile, many middle class Brazilians were angry at high taxes, appalling public services and crime. Resentment was also rising about issues such as the cost of Bolsa Família, quotas for underprivileged groups in universities and even rises in the Minimum Wage and employment rights for their maids and nannies. They began to get organised online and from early 2015 launched demos, ostensibly protesting about corruption but there were a disturbing number of banners demanding military intervention.

                        The irony is that, despite the best efforts of the media, no-one has accused Dilma's of being personally corrupt. She is being impeached for disguising the true state of government finances before the election, something that just about every world leader would be found guilty of. The truth is that the opposition has never accepted Dilma's narrow (3%) but clear victory in the 2014 election and they have been plotting to get rid of her ever since.

                        Where I disagree with steveeee is about Dilma's chances in a future election (there would have to be a change in the constitution for one to occur before 2018). Her approval ratings are down in single figures. Indeed, the opposition are much more worried about the possible return of Lula to run for a third term in 2018. He still does retain mass grassroots support - hence the attempt to pin some rather dubious corruption charges on him.

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                          #13
                          Rousseff impeachment

                          I forgot to mention when discussing the anti-govt demos, the use of Cold War rhetoric. The PT are denounced as communists and urged to bugger off to Venezuela or Cuba. I could understand the appeal of red scare tactics in 1964 but they are still quite potent today, despite the fact that the PT has been a government of fiscal redistribution rather than any threat to the private ownership of business.

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                            #14
                            Rousseff impeachment

                            Most of the anti-government protestors are decent people who are rightly concerned about corruption which is so endemic that it is an enormous dead-weight on the Brazilian economy. Any public project, from World Cup stadiums to schools or hospitals costs far more than it should due to the pay-offs demanded by politicians and their cronies. It is no surprise that education and health services are in such an appalling state with, it has to be said, little improvement after nearly 14 years of PT government.

                            However, most protestors blame this corruption exclusively on the PT whereas the Lava Jato investigations clearly show that politicians from all parties are implicated. Interestingly, in the Panama Papers politicians from all parties except the PT and PSOL are cited. This has been largely ignored by the Brazilian media.

                            The anti-govt protestors' hero is Sérgio Moro, the head of Lava Jato who they see as the man to sweep out all corrupt politicians. They should be careful what they wish for. I suspect that under a Temer presidency, Lava Jato will be quickly sidelined.

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                              #15
                              Rousseff impeachment

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                                #16
                                Rousseff impeachment

                                cantagalo wrote:
                                Where I disagree with steveeee is about Dilma's chances in a future election (there would have to be a change in the constitution for one to occur before 2018). Her approval ratings are down in single figures.
                                But how can any kind of approval rating touted by the Brazilian media be trusted? Globo has a long history of manipulating the public in order to throw sh*t on anyone and everyone associated with PT.

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                                  #17
                                  Rousseff impeachment

                                  They're carried out by independent polling companies. Clearly, Globo will put their spin on them but these are the same polls that we're giving Lula (and Dilma during her first term) record approval ratings. When visiting Brazil, Barack Obama was asking Lula for tips about how he became 'the most popular politician in the world'. Globo do indeed have a long and dishonourable record of manipulation but there is little doubt that Dilma is currently very unpopular. With the economy in its present state it would be a miracle if she wasn't.

                                  The latest polls show 61% in favour of impeachment, down from 68% a few weeks ago, though as you would expect, Globo hasn't paid much attention to this decline in support.

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                                    #18
                                    Rousseff impeachment

                                    Here's a flavour of last night's proceedings. Watch out for the lizard-like Cunha calling up deputies to vote.

                                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8iYrai7oyr4

                                    This is Deputada Raquel Muniz (PSD) from Minas Gerais. She dedicates her vote to her husband and various family members.

                                    She wasn't so pleased with herself this morning when her husband, the Mayor of Montes Claros was arrested for corruption involving the sabotage of public hospitals to favour the family-owned private hospital.

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                                      #19
                                      Rousseff impeachment

                                      Is this vote dedication thing a common practice in Brazil?

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                                        #20
                                        Rousseff impeachment

                                        The we here is a rhetorical we, I presume...
                                        Well, yes, in so far as I haven't formed any view about her political record, being insufficiently familiar both with it and with the alternatives on offer.

                                        Some very powerful points being made on this thread about the fact that the people doing the impeaching have worse corruption records than Rousseff, which I find a considerably more persuasive argument in her favour than any of the ones which I summarised earlier (pretty fairly I think, contrary to the charge of "oversimplification") from stevee's post.

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                                          #21
                                          Rousseff impeachment

                                          My understanding is that it was a special made-for-television production.

                                          It's hard to see how they would ever pass any serious volume of legislation otherwise.

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                                            #22
                                            Rousseff impeachment

                                            This is Deputado Jean Wyllys who bizarrely rose to fame as a winner of Big Brother Brasil. He represents the left wing PSOL. He is only the second ever openly gay member of Congress.

                                            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WQxR_ytPNaU

                                            He now faces disciplinary action after spitting in the face of the aforementioned torturer-supporting Jair Bolsonaro.

                                            https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oXsAr74q9Ws

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                                              #23
                                              Rousseff impeachment

                                              ursus arctos wrote: My understanding is that it was a special made-for-television production.

                                              It's hard to see how they would ever pass any serious volume of legislation otherwise.
                                              Yes, it's was televised live. With more than 500 votes cast individually, it took something like six or seven hours.

                                              The only mercy for viewers was that Sunday's Domingão do Faustão programme was cancelled.

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                                                #24
                                                Rousseff impeachment

                                                Evariste Euler Gauss wrote:
                                                The we here is a rhetorical we, I presume...
                                                Well, yes, in so far as I haven't formed any view about her political record, being insufficiently familiar both with it and with the alternatives on offer.

                                                Some very powerful points being made on this thread about the fact that the people doing the impeaching have worse corruption records than Rousseff, which I find a considerably more persuasive argument in her favour than any of the ones which I summarised earlier (pretty fairly I think, contrary to the charge of "oversimplification") from stevee's post.
                                                Lovely, double insult on the same thread! So, you admit I have an argument, but it's just piss poor compared every other poster on OTF?

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Rousseff impeachment

                                                  This is Tiririca (PR). He is a clown. Yes, literally a clown. That was his profession. Elected in 2010 under the slogan 'It can't get any worse, vote Tiririca', he is functionally illiterate.

                                                  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kif0O9hSSGY

                                                  He is now widely regarded as one of the more honest members of Congress.

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