Rousseff impeachment

[Duncan Gardner]

Rousseff impeachment

Thanks all. I knew little of this until reading the thread. Although Brazilian politics always makes me think of Demis Roussos covering Lola. Obrigado!

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Rousseff impeachment

I'm sure you have arguments, stevee. It's just that I didn't find any of the 3 you used in your opening post particularly convincing.

1. Her government has done lots of good stuff and is left wing - so what, that doesn't excuse corruption.

2. Brazil used to be in a terribly corrupt state before, worse than the corruption in the government now. Again, so what?

3. Only white faces in the protest rallies? Hello? That's an argument? You could say the same thing about most Bernie Sanders campaign rallies.

The two strong arguments I've heard - and learnt from - later in the thread were that (a) the people doing the impeaching are far worse than her, both legally* and morally, and (b) she doesn't seem to have been personally guilty of anything very serious. Those are powerful points - overwhelming really in her favour - but you didn't mention either of them.
* in terms of corruption and so on

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

cantagalo wrote: The anti-govt protestors' hero is Sérgio Moro, the head of Lava Jato who they see as the man to sweep out all corrupt politicians. They should be careful what they wish for. I suspect that under a Temer presidency, Lava Jato will be quickly sidelined.

The kite-flying has already started.

http://pirambunews.com.br/deputados-falam-em-anistia-para-cunha-isso-e-possivel/

Sorry it's in Portuguese but here's a couple of quotes:

'Without him, we would not have the impeachment process. For this, Cunha deserves an amnesty'. Paulinho da Força (SD)

'Eduardo Cunha played a fundamental role in approving the impeachment of the President. He deserves to be amnestied'. Oscar Serráglio (PMDB)

[Sam]

Rousseff impeachment

Vulgarian Visigoth wrote:

Independence from whom? China's made big strides here while the US has had its gaze focussed elsewhere.

The difference is China doesn't meddle with your politics.

Right, it's not like there's a history of new superpowers gaining an economic foothold in new regions before later starting to gain political influence there too.

And in a region where politicans (are widely suspected to*) take economic kickbacks for things like construction and development contracts, how independent is 'independent'?

(I'm assuming the 'your' in that post was a general one rather than addressing me directly; if it was the latter, I'm confused.)

*Just in case any of their lawyers are reading this, like.

[ursus arctos]

Rousseff impeachment

The Economist has translated a collection of the reasons given by deputies voting for impeachment.

For the birthday of my granddaughter
For the foundations of Christianity
For Bruno and Felipe
For the Masons of Brazil
For rural producers, because if they don’t plant there will be neither lunch nor dinner
Because of the proposal that children can have sex-change procedures [while still] in school
To end the profitability of being unemployed or a layabout
For the congregation of the “Quadrangular” [an evangelical church]
For the aged and children
For an end to welfare dependency
For my mother Lucimar
For charismatic renewal
For Brazilian doctors
To put an end to CUT [the biggest Brazilian grouping of trade unions] and its no-good types
For the love of this country
For an end to the Petrobras scandal and those who profited from it
For the Republic of Curitiba [a Brazilian state; Sérgio Moro, the crusading judge leading the investigation into corruption at the state-controlled oil giant, Petrobras, hails from there]
In memory of my father
For Campo Grande [the state capital of Mato Grosso do Sul], the loveliest brunette of Brazil
For gun control
Because of the communism that threatens this country
For the fearless and pioneering people of the state of Rondônia
For BR 429 [an interstate highway]
For all the insurance brokers
For my unborn daughter Manoela
For my 93-year-old mother who is at home
In homage to my city’s founding day
For peace in Jerusalem
For the best state, Tocantins
For my mother, who at the moment is fighting for her life
For the sector that generates wealth: agribusiness
For my son Breno and my beloved military police of São Paulo
For the military of 1964 [who took control of Brazil in a coup]
So that we don’t become Reds like in Venezuela and North Korea
For my 78-year-old father who taught me the principles of the word of God
For Sandra, for Erica, for Vítor, for Jorge, and for my grandson who is on the way
For my state of São Paulo, governed for the past 20 years by honest politicians from my party
For my wife and my daughter, who are my principal electorate
As tribute to my only and true riches, my daughters
For an end to the “colonels” [the big landowners and rich families who effectively rule much of north and north-east Brazil]
For the armed forces who are now pensioners without a salary
In tribute to my father Roberto Jefferson [a Brazilian politician implicated in a massive political scandal in 2005]
For Carlos Alberto Brilhante Ustra, the Terror of Dilma [Colonel Brilhante Ustra was the chief torturer under the military dictatorship]
For street-dwellers who sleep on the street, are born on the street and die on the street
In order that no government stands against the nation of Israel
For science and technology
For my wife Mariana and daughter little Mariana
Against the Bolivarian dictatorship
For the truckers
For free men and morality
For the honour of the people of Minas Gerais [a Brazilian state]
For Canção Nova [a Catholic radio and television network]; for the Brazilians who live with drugs
For my aunt Eurides, who looked after me when I was small
For you, mum
For the libertarian traditions of Minas Gerais
I forgot to mention my son. For you, Paulo Henrique! Kiss!
For the cancer hospital
In tribute to the victims of BR 251 [an interstate highway]
To honour the flag of Minas Gerais
I am a leader of the majority; I am not a leader of the minority

Virtually no one mentioned the fiscal accounting matter on which Dilma was charged.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Rousseff impeachment

Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: I'm sure you have arguments, stevee. It's just that I didn't find any of the 3 you used in your opening post particularly convincing.

1. Her government has done lots of good stuff and is left wing - so what, that doesn't excuse corruption.

2. Brazil used to be in a terribly corrupt state before, worse than the corruption in the government now. Again, so what?

3. Only white faces in the protest rallies? Hello? That's an argument? You could say the same thing about most Bernie Sanders campaign rallies.

The two strong arguments I've heard - and learnt from - later in the thread were that (a) the people doing the impeaching are far worse than her, both legally* and morally, and (b) she doesn't seem to have been personally guilty of anything very serious. Those are powerful points - overwhelming really in her favour - but you didn't mention either of them.
* in terms of corruption and so on

I'm not here to f*cking teach you, I'm here to share my opinion, which you ridiculed like an utter trolling cock.

But if you want to learn something, go look up what this means, "Vai foder-se caralho."

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Rousseff impeachment

Your first post on this thread set out three arguments against the impeachment of Rousseff. I objected to them. You want to get abusive, that's your problem. It really doesn't bother me, but if it's what you need to do to feel good, just carry on being offensive and abusive to your heart's content.

[steveeeeeeeee]

Rousseff impeachment

1. You write an uninformed response and admit you know little about the case.
2. You subsequently compound this by belittling my contribution on two occasions to disguise your ignorant initial post.
3. You play the victim when I understandably get angry.

That's the case for your defence?

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

This is Paulo Maluf of the Progressive Party (bit of a misnomer there) delivering his vote in favour of impeachment.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mKddIcZzlsc

A former Presidential candidate and Mayor of São Paulo, he is from the 'rouba mas faz' (he steals but gets things done) school of Brazilian politicians. When arguing in favour of capital punishment for rape followed by murder, he once advised an audience of students to 'estrupra mas não mata' (rape but don't kill).

This year he was sentenced to 3 years in prison in France. He is currently wanted for money laundering by Interpol and is subject to arrest and extradition in 181 countries. The Brazilian Constitution does not allow for the extradition of its citizens.

[Evariste Euler Gauss]

Rousseff impeachment

1. You write an uninformed response and admit you know little about the case.
2. You subsequently compound this by belittling my contribution on two occasions to disguise your ignorant initial post.
3. You play the victim when I understandably get angry.

re 1: I didn't claim to be "informed". I just queried whether your points (left wing, plenty worse and white protesters) were legitimate reasons to object to the impeachment. I don't think that needs much information and I still query whether any of those arguments are sound.

2. "Belittling your contribution" is a pretty over-sensitive way to characterise the fact that I found other arguments (Rousseff more or less innocent and the impeachers a bunch of crooks) a lot more persuasive than the ones you had kicked off with. I'll happily "belittle" any contribution from anyone before I concede e.g. that protests count for nothing if all protesters are white, or that impeachment is bound to be a bad thing if it's against a progressive left wing leader.

3. Abusive, not "angry". If you can't resist being abusive whenever you feel angry, that's pretty poor. I'm not playing the victim, I couldn't give a fuck how abusive you get, it really doesn't make me feel victimised.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

Just received a message from a friend in Rio de Janeiro.

'There are no celebrations on the streets. Just a grey cloud of heavy depression. The silence of the pro-impeachment crowd is deafening. After watching the awful illiterate thieves baying and jumping, led by King Bandit Cunha, it's as if they've just realised that their country is now going to be led by the mafia, a circus of pantomime villains'.

It seems that the markets may be having second thoughts as well. After a strong rally prompted by the prospect of impeachment, the Real has fallen from £1 = R4.95 to £1 = R5.18 in the last 24 hours.

[Borracho]

Rousseff impeachment

What happens next? Dilma gets voted down and has to resign?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Rousseff impeachment

The Brazilian Constitution does not allow for the extradition of its citizens.

that was clearly a political establishment with an admirable long term plan to commit a lot of crimes overseas. Most elites don't have that foresight.

For the truckers

This one caught the eye for some reason.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

There will be a vote in the upper house, the Senate, which will probably happen in mid-May. A simple majority vote in favour (41 out of 81) will mean that Dilma is suspended for 180 days while the charges are investigated. During this period Vice President Temer becomes the interim President.

Within 180 days, a full plenary of the Senate meets with a two thirds majority required to oust Dilma. Temer would become President until the next elections in 2018.

New elections prior to 2018 would require new legislation and a change to the Constitution - which is considered unlikely.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

After much equivocation, Senator Romário Faria (PSB-RJ) has announced that he will be voting in favour of impeachment.

He has also asked for new elections prior to 2018.

[ursus arctos]

Rousseff impeachment

He was much more decisive in the box.

This is a complete failure of the political class in a time of national crisis, and it is hard to see how things improve n the short to medium term.

[Ginger Yellow]

Rousseff impeachment

The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote:

For the truckers

This one caught the eye for some reason.

More than "For the insurance brokers"?

[Borracho]

Rousseff impeachment

I thought Romario was supposed to be one of the good guys these days? The little prick.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

Compared to most of them, he is a relatively good guy.

He's currently chairing a Parliamentary Commission of Inquiry into Brazilian football and hauling the CBF over the coals. However, as you can see with the politicians, it's hard to make anything stick on these guys.

Incidentally, it's always amused me that the preferred attire of the pro-impeachment movement on demonstrations is the Brazilian football shirt bearing the badge of one of the most corrupt institutions in the country.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

Glenn Greenwald on CNN.

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/04/18/intv-amanpour-glenn-greenwald-dilma-rousseff-impeachment.cnn/video/playlists/amanpour/

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

Update on the Jean Wyllys spitting incident.

Footage has emerged of Wyllys being spat upon by Eduardo Bolsonaro immediately after casting his vote against impeachment.

Name sound familiar? Yes, he's the son of Jair Bolsonaro, future Presidential candidate and admirer of torturers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6J4y7nCnAY

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

'Bela, recatada e do lar'

http://www.forbes.com/sites/shannonsims/2016/04/20/the-hilarious-feminist-backlash-to-brazils-impeachment-fallout/#6eefdcf759fa

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

Meanwhile in Rio, a cycle track built at a cost of $R45m as part of the 'Olympic Legacy', has collapsed after being hit by a large wave, killing at least two people.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/21/rio-de-janeiro-bicycle-path-collapse-death-brazil-olympic-games

Mayor of Rio, Eduardo Paes (PMDB) has returned to the city from Athens.

The company that built the cycle track is owned by a relative of Rio's Secretary for Tourism.

[ursus arctos]

Rousseff impeachment

The Globo photos of the aftermath of that tragedy are horrifying.

[cantagalo]

Rousseff impeachment

It was only opened in January. It was part of a stretch of cycle path linking Copacabana and Ipanema in Zona Sul to Barra where most Olympic events will take place.

It looked absolutely stunning but you would have hoped that rigorous stress tests would have been carried out. Public projects in Brazil are notorious for shoddy construction and the use of sub-standard materials.

And of course construction companies such as Oderbrecht are at the heart of Lava Jato's investigations into corruption at Petrobras.