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Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

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    #26
    Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

    Toro Toro wrote: Fussbudget - sure, you could. In which case, you know how to translate it.
    Not necessarily. I've come across English phrases that I understand perfectly, but struggle to translate into French, and vice versa.

    This happens a lot at the dinner table when we go to my parents, as my mum's English isn't very good and she has to have every single word translated into French for her benefit, even if she's not involved in the conversation at all. I find that I struggle to translate some phrases into French, at least without losing some of the meaning. Any translation I do come up with for these is approximative, not quite right. Sometimes I just give up trying to translate something altogether (and now obviously I can't remember any specific example, but it happens a fair amount.)

    Unsurprisingly, most jokes and play on words are untranslatable, but she just refuses to accept that.

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      #27
      Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

      Speaking from many years of miserable and frustrating experience, I'd agree that there isn't anything that absolutely can't be translated, but there are plenty of things that aren't elegantly or succinctly translatable.

      That's why non-native speakers in Germany talk about the S-Bahn or bratwursts or sitzriesen, because it's easier, but you could translate it to your mum and dad if you had to.

      When you do it for a living you soon notice that there's very little that can be translated just like that. In my field - technical translation - the biggest problem is that most of the authors can't write their own language properly, but quite apart from that, languages simply work differently in ways that you don't notice at first.

      Take German and English. They're closely related languages, but the way they flow is totally different. German is allergic to verbs, stilted and static, but very precise. English is much more fluid, but vaguer. This means there are loads of nouns in German, especially compound ones, that either need half a sentence to translate or can be replaced with a verb or safely ignored.

      I've met plenty of people who are perfectly fluent in more than one language but can't translate their way out of a paper bag.

      Aside from a basic proficiency in speaking the language, you need a feel for writing it, and - more importantly - common sense, a decent level of general knowledge and at least a passing interest in the subject you're translating.

      I know this hasn't got much to do with the subject at hand, but I've been having some horrible proofreading experiences lately and needed to get it off my chest.

      (Edit, having just read Fussbudget: Apart from plays on words. They really are untranslatable. And greetings. The one job I dread every year is getting lumbered with translating our customers' Christmas cards. I just make shit up.)

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        #28
        Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

        there are plenty of things that aren't elegantly or succinctly translatable.
        In spades. And a whole heap more that can't be translated in a way which reflects the mix of nuances of the original, which are often deeply linked to the cultural context of the native language. The closest English word to the German "gemuetlich", for example, is probably "cosy", but that really doesn't get the spirit of the word across.

        I'd like to see someone translate the band name of the English eighties pop band The The into Russian.

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          #29
          Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

          My favourite German phrase from when I worked there was when you clocked off work and your colleagues wished you "schoenen Feierabend!" It was one of the expressions our little group of expat English youth started using with each other ironically.

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            #30
            Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

            There are heaps of words in Yiddish that really can't be translated succinctly.

            There's a state of mind entwined within the sounds.

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              #31
              Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

              "Translatable" doesn't mean "elegantly or succinctly translatable", or "translatable in one word", or "we have an existing word which corresponds exactly to it".

              And sure, plays on words frequently are untranslatable, but that's because they depend on both form and content - this is also a problem for poetry. But the semantic content of any term can by definition be translated into any language. Because - and this answers ad hoc's "why?" question - if it could not be translated we could not identify its semantic content, and so could not make the claim that that content could not be translated in the first place.

              Saying "X is untranslatable" is self-defeating, in other words. To say it truthfully, you would have to be able to say what it is that cannot be translated. But once you have done that, you can translate X.

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                #32
                Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                You're just anti-Semantic

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                  #33
                  Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                  Personally Id say that the reason Skrilitz !k'noringo polstreg is not an example of an untranslatable phrase is because it's not actually a phrase, not because it's not untranslatable. As far as I can see from any meaningful definition of untranslatable it fulfills the requirements - it cannot be translated.

                  Maybe the word "untranslatable" is untranslatable, since already we seem to have some differences in meaning. By your definition the word represents something which doesn't and can't exist (I dunno, like "unicorn" or "the holy ghost")

                  Anyway, I'm just trying to get my head around the idea that nothing can be untranslatable, because like others have said, the level of nuance and cultural baggage attached to some words is so great that I feel that they genuinely can't be translated successfully (at best they can be vaguely approximated)

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                    #34
                    Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                    Posty Webber wrote: You're just anti-Semantic
                    Applause!

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                      #35
                      Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                      Toro Toro wrote: And sure, plays on words frequently are untranslatable, but that's because they depend on both form and content - this is also a problem for poetry.
                      I'd say that the same holds for most prose too.

                      The Dutch language does not have a word for the color teal. Sure, I can describe that it is a shade somewhere between green and blue. But for me, that is not translating. I can only indirectly describe the concept, but no direct translation into a parallel concept in Dutch exists. Hence, I call the concept 'teal' untranslatable from English into Dutch. From what I've read on this thread, you seem to disagree with that (which is fair enough, of course).

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                        #36
                        Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                        Fussbudget wrote:
                        Originally posted by Toro Toro
                        There is not, and could not ever be, such a thing as an untranslatable phrase. To recognise that it was untranslatable, one would first have had to understand - and therefore to have translated - it.
                        Or one could be fluent in more than one language?
                        This. You don't have to translate a phrase in order to understand it. You can just...you know...understand it.

                        You don't need to translate the phrase hat trick to any other language before you understand it. What you need to do is to grasp the concept.

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                          #37
                          Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                          Smallcaps wrote: From what I've read on this thread, you seem to disagree with that (which is fair enough, of course).
                          No, it's not allowed.

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                            #38
                            Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                            Smallcaps wrote:
                            Originally posted by Toro Toro
                            And sure, plays on words frequently are untranslatable, but that's because they depend on both form and content - this is also a problem for poetry.
                            I'd say that the same holds for most prose too.

                            The Dutch language does not have a word for the color teal. Sure, I can describe that it is a shade somewhere between green and blue. But for me, that is not translating. I can only indirectly describe the concept, but no direct translation into a parallel concept in Dutch exists. Hence, I call the concept 'teal' untranslatable from English into Dutch. From what I've read on this thread, you seem to disagree with that (which is fair enough, of course).
                            Gezellig!

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                              #39
                              Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                              Portuguese has a particularly odd one, "fazer de gato-sapato", which is to mistreat someone in a fairly humiliating way. Not sure we really have a word for that in English.

                              It literally means "to do the cat and shoe [to someone]".

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                                #40
                                Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                                I just learned a new Portuguese phrase today.

                                Merdimboca.

                                Apparently it's one of the lovely things the first Portuguese to make it round Africa into the Indian Ocean did to the Muslim merchants they didn't like.

                                Don't suggest looking it up if you're about to eat.

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                                  #41
                                  Untranslatable phrases English should adopt

                                  While there are some brilliant words in Welsh that the English should adopt such as twp and cwtch, hwyl is the untranslateable one. It sort of means a cross between nostalgia, homesickness and patriotism but not really any of them but every Welsh person understands it.

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