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    OK, Gary Glitter then

    One to test the liberal resolve of OTFers.

    The 'he's done his time' doesn't appear to carry much weight with his crimes hence most country's refusal to have him. However, the tabloid circus in the UK I can see why he would like to avoid that

    you are the ref
    ___________

    The disgraced glam rock star Gary Glitter last night appeared to have dodged deportation to the UK after refusing to get on a connecting flight from Bangkok and asking Thai officials to allow him to enter Thailand. After a series of confrontations involving flustered British embassy officials, police and Thai immigration officers, Glitter whose real name is Paul Gadd, collapsed in an airport hotel room complaining of a heart ailment.

    Glitter had earlier been released from a Vietnamese prison where he had served two-and-a-half years for sexually abusing children, and was expected to arrive at Heathrow shortly after 7am today, having been released from Thu Duc prison, north of Ho Chi Minh City. He was jailed in November 2005 after being convicted of repeated sexual assaults on two girls, aged 10 and 11.

    His return was thrown into confusion last night, however, when he reportedly collapsed in room 6000 of the Louis Tavern, a hotel sited at the airport but which is in a "no man's land" between disembarkation and immigration, so not officially in Thailand.

    In the early hours of this morning he was attended to by a doctor on call at the airport and paid for his treatment in cash. He has demanded to be taken to hospital today. If he is allowed he will have to pass Thai immigration.

    Sudarat Sereewat, secretary of Thailand's Fight Against Child Exploitation group, who was present said: "At first he asked to be allowed to enter Thailand. But he was refused. He said he had not committed any offence here, but he was told he was not wanted here."

    Unable to enter Thailand Glitter then demanded to fly on to Singapore but was advised that there was no flight until much later in the morning. He then demanded that he be treated as a first class passenger. "I am not getting back on the plane with all the press there," he said. "And I'm not going to the first class lounge to be hassled by them. And I'm not going to London. You can't make me. I have done my time, I am a free man."

    After complaining of fatigue and dizziness he was escorted by two Thai immigration policemen to Louis Tavern, a VIP area with small bedrooms in which transit passengers can lie down. Rooms are usually rented by the hour with three hours costing the equivalent of £50. Glitter rented a room for eight hours for £100.

    A British police officer from the Child Exploitation and Online Protection centre who had been sent to escort Gadd back to the UK was asked to persuade him to get on the flight, but was unsuccessful. He told Thai officials that Gadd should return to London.

    Two Thai Immigration police who were sent to collect him to put him back on the flight to London refused to use force to take him back on the flight.

    And when the British police officer was asked if he had any paperwork, he admitted he had none except an order to bring Gadd home. He also admitted he had not legal jurisdiction, and he returned to the departure gate to wait.

    As Glitter was due to fly home the Home Office announced a series of measures that would make it easier to monitor sex offenders and prevent them committing further crimes in Britain or overseas.

    They include removing the need for recent evidence when police are seeking to bar offenders from areas frequented by children, for instance, requiring registered offenders to notify police earlier if they want to travel abroad, and allowing the authorities to remove an offender's passport if he has been banned from travel.

    Foreign travel orders, which prevent abusers travelling to specific countries or leaving the UK altogether, will be extended from their current limit of six months.

    "I want to see anyone who poses a threat to our children dealt with as firmly as possible," the home secretary, Jacqui Smith, said. "I've spoken to child protection experts and the police and they have told me that these changes will further restrict the ability of child sex offenders to harm children both here and overseas."

    Glitter, who also served a short sentence in the UK in 1999 for possession of more than 4,000 images of child pornography, had been expected to be met on arrival by Metropolitan police officers, and will be required to sign the sex offenders' register and remain under supervision for the rest of his life.

    Under Mappa, the multi-agency public protection arrangements by which sex offenders are monitored, it is understood he will be considered a level 1 risk, requiring the lowest level of monitoring by police and probation officers.

    This means he must register an address with police and notify them if he moves or stays away for more than a few days. Reports that the former star would go to a hostel in the West Country were unconfirmed.

    He retains his British passport, however, and, visas permitting, will be free to travel overseas unless a specific order bans him from doing so.

    #2
    OK, Gary Glitter then

    Paedophile or not, I'm pleased he was able to fuck up the media opportunity the Home Office had set up for the increasingly ridiculous Jacqui Smith. Noo Labour under Blair used to make up policy on the hoof, under Brown it appears they need a sleb to be involved as well, preferably a disgraced one.

    Comment


      #3
      OK, Gary Glitter then

      rick, what is it here that's testing our liberal resolve? Not being smartarse, I'm just not sure what you're asking.

      Comment


        #4
        OK, Gary Glitter then

        I don't think it is about liberal resolve. We are entitled to protect people, particularly children, from abusers. Not because children are cute, but because they are vulnerable and need adult protection. To my mind that's a basic tenet of civilised society.

        People like Gary Glitter need to go through a serious course of behaviour management (Ican't think of a better term) to come to terms with the impact of their abuse, understand how dangerous it is and be given the structures and support (and threats if necessary) to change his behaviour. Once he has done this, he should be given support and supervision to re-integrate. At which point giving him a chance to behave responsibly would be fair and acceptable.

        If a man threatened and bullied his wife, it is not illiberal to ban him from the family home and her workplace. Similarly a different type of abuser, like GG, needs to be restrained from places where he can continue his abuse until he has come to terms with it.

        Comment


          #5
          OK, Gary Glitter then

          It's interesting that some people seek to exclude child abusers like Glitter from their country, while we seem keen to get him here and make sure he stays. I'd be a lot happier with that approach if I was confident we could keep tabs on his movements, or that he was going to change his behaviour.

          Comment


            #6
            OK, Gary Glitter then

            The obvious difference being that he's a UK citizen.

            Comment


              #7
              OK, Gary Glitter then

              eople like Gary Glitter need to go through a serious course of behaviour management (Ican't think of a better term) to come to terms with the impact of their abuse, understand how dangerous it is and be given the structures and support (and threats if necessary) to change his behaviour.
              I doubt that Glitter or any other serial abusers of children over decades are going to gain any new insight into the effects of their actions at this late stage of proceedings.

              Is there any evidence that paedophiles are ever really cured ? Perhaps the ones who undergo chemical castration might be though that will never happen in this country - it would be a populist policy all the same.

              My understanding was that even with all the counselling under the sun, few paedophiles ever regret their actions or want to change their direction in life. The only real option seems to be control, making it as hard as possible for them to exercise their deviance.

              Comment


                #8
                OK, Gary Glitter then

                Prisoners of all sorts tend to reoffend. I don't know whether sex offenders are all that more likely to.

                What do you mean by cured? That they never abuse again or that they lose all desire to abuse?

                If a man threatened and bullied his wife, it is not illiberal to ban him from the family home and her workplace.
                What happens is that he will banned from there with the threat of prison hanging over him. If he finishes a prison sentence I don't think he can be banned from there, can he?

                Once he has done this, he should be given support and supervision to re-integrate.
                But what if a paedophile finishes prison and hasn't completed the course satisfactorilly? You just have to release them unless they have a life sentence. They go on the sex offender register but I presume they can't be kept inside any longer.

                I really do think this is a difficult issue.

                Comment


                  #9
                  OK, Gary Glitter then

                  rick, what is it here that's testing our liberal resolve? Not being smartarse, I'm just not sure what you're asking.
                  wyatt, just seen this

                  er..its tricky one. listening to radio 5 yesterday 'are we tough enough on pedophiles?'

                  er... its all the media go on about

                  part of the problem, 3 years inside 'you are cured mate. bye'

                  or should it be 'go and live on an island somewhere, just don't go near any kids'

                  if he had done an 8 stretch for armed robbery we would be saying 'done his time' but others have said, its not that easy

                  like a lot on here, I am a father, like some I am also a teacher. I really don't know how to call this. Rogin was right about the media scrum and new labour point scoring

                  they were talking on the radio about liberal scandavian counties having optional Castration treatment which massively reduces re offending. If GG did that he should be allowed to go and live in HK, singapore or Leeds

                  Comment


                    #10
                    OK, Gary Glitter then

                    There isn't a serious debate to be had about the rehabilitation of peadophiles to had in the context of the Gary Glitter case.

                    It is the sort of one-off case that the media will jump upon and there is no satisfactory way to resolve it unfortunately.

                    There are probably a lot of root and branch changes that could be made as far as the sentencing and rehabitation of peadophiles are concerned but these would have to address the fact that, statistically, these people are more likely to related to the children than predatory opportunist peadophiles and that story just isn't "sexy" in a media or political sense

                    Comment


                      #11
                      OK, Gary Glitter then

                      We can have a discussion on here about it though, can't we?

                      You're right about the profile of paedophiles. But similar questions come up with every sort of them (and indeed with all serious crime). How long is the sentence? How do you reform? Can you take measures against them when their sentences have finished?

                      Comment


                        #12
                        OK, Gary Glitter then

                        Jesus, people, this is very easily taken care of. I mean, I know E10 will call me a Statist or something, and Wyatt will probably think it's my tendency to let government intrude too much on people's lives, but this is a serious issue we're talking about. Kids need serious, no-nonsense protection, and I've got a serious, no-nonsense solution.

                        Ban the sale of sweets to over-16s.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          OK, Gary Glitter then

                          Gary Glitter is like a human version of one of those nuclear waste ships that's treated as a metallic leper (wow, check out how I antianthropomorphised and anthropomorphised in the same sentence) and nobody will let it dock, except that Britain wants him to come here and stay. Did I say 'except'? That actually makes him just like a ship full of nuclear waste. Bit of politics there.

                          I would actually go and see him in concert, in theory. Although in reality such a thing could never happen because there would be Hammer Horror-style processions of angry villagers with pitchforks and flaming torches, and the audience would need police protection, never mind the artist.

                          Murder is worse than kiddy-fiddling, and he's done his time, and not many people kicked up a fuss about a murderer being on EastEnders.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            OK, Gary Glitter then

                            Leslie Grantham did a life sentence which means that he had to be assessed as low risk to reoffend before he's released. Glitter (like most paedophiles) hasn't done that.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              OK, Gary Glitter then

                              Tubby Isaacs wrote:
                              Leslie Grantham did a life sentence which means that he had to be assessed as low risk to reoffend before he's released. Glitter (like most paedophiles) hasn't done that.
                              Do you honestly believe that the hysteria around Glitter is fuelled by the rational and considered fear that he might reoffend, as opposed to "Urgh, he's a fucking pervert, let's get him"?

                              Comment


                                #16
                                OK, Gary Glitter then

                                Well, he's already got form for reoffending has he not?

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  OK, Gary Glitter then

                                  There are probably a lot of root and branch changes that could be made as far as the sentencing and rehabitation of peadophiles are concerned but these would have to address the fact that, statistically, these people are more likely to related to the children than predatory opportunist peadophiles and that story just isn't "sexy" in a media or political sense

                                  you get a lot less of this fuss in Ireland, largely for this reason i think. There's a big fuss made of institutional abuse, but not this gary glitter style circus.

                                  I think Glitter's problems wouldn't be so bad if he didn't look so fucking dodgy. he looks like some kind of mastermind from a 50's comic strip

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    OK, Gary Glitter then

                                    Like when we discussed the Soham murders a few years ago, it is difficult to get any sort of sensible debate on this. Even here, where the chances are better than anywhere else it is difficult to separate the genuine issues from the media obsession and hypocrisy.

                                    I don't think counselling is the answer. Whilst I am sure it has a place, it probably won't be structured and confrontational enough. I thnk he deserves a chance at rehabilitation and my suggestion was that he go through a very tough supervised course that other abusers have to go through. He deserves that chance, but I can't see the alternative: preventitive detention? 24 hour police protection? Suicide?

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      OK, Gary Glitter then

                                      Sorry, Tubby, I wasn't trying to be overly prescriptive about this.

                                      This is just one of those issues that needs talking about away from the media hysteria and away from any "speak your brains" opinions (even on here). Similar to IVF and, perhaps, abortion, there are too many uninformed idiots sticking their oar in

                                      I always wish, in these debates, that there were people with genuine experience in the areas involved to pass on informed information.

                                      Maybe there is on this list. My only experience is having been on a Child Protection course and having been involved in schools and youth football.

                                      One point I would make is that I am not entirely confident about schools noticing, addressing and reporting child abuse in general and, as most peaodeophilia happens within the family,this is a major fault as, obviously, schools are at the sharp end of any such detection possibilties.

                                      I am not criticising schools, by the way, but the way that they are being dragged away from child-centred attitudes and more results-based.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        OK, Gary Glitter then

                                        Actually, I was speaking about this to my wife and we both realised that we didn't know what had happened to Jonathan King. This wiki article suggests that the future for Glitter isn't so bleak

                                        On his release he stated his intention to return to the music and entertainment industry[17].

                                        King promoted Orson, whom he discovered on MySpace, in The Tip Sheet, and they later signed recording and publishing deals as a result and released successful singles and an album in the UK. King heard of Orson from an early advocate of Orson's talent and potential[18]on their MySpace site, raved about No Tomorrow on the Tipsheet and within days the band had publishing and label deals. [19]

                                        His 1969 hit "Let It All Hang Out", which he publishes, fronted a lucrative TV commercial campaign for Fosters Twist Lager in 2006 and 2007.

                                        In 2007 he released a collection of mainly new songs, entitled Earth to King. One of these songs attracted controversy in July 2007, when it was seen to defend the serial killer Harold Shipman. [20].

                                        In November 2007, it was reported that the European Court of Human Rights is hearing the appeal against his convictions.[21]

                                        In May 2008, he released a full length feature film [22]called "Vile Pervert: The Musical" which he describes as a comedy documentary.[23] This is a satire including 21 music numbers and 21 characters mainly portrayed by King. [24].

                                        This has been placed online and can be watched or downloaded for free. [25].[26].

                                        20,000 full length views/downloads in the first month and some interesting reviews [27].

                                        His performance as Oscar Wilde and the song Wilde About Boys attracted massive media attention.[28].
                                        Just an anecdotal aside - I was in a band in the revolutionary hotbed of Tunbridge Wells and the local lads in the band were obsessed with causing "outrage". Their ideas were of the Marilyn Manson-esque proportions of nicking the traffic cones from the local church and putting them onstage.

                                        I mentioned to them that if they really wanted to shock the inhabitants of Tunbridge Wells, we should cover a Glitter song (this was around the time of the trial). They thought this a step too far.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          OK, Gary Glitter then

                                          I think Glitter's problems wouldn't be so bad if he didn't look so fucking dodgy. he looks like some kind of mastermind from a 50's comic strip
                                          Why is it that all paedophiles have a beard and glasses? What is it about that look that kids find so sexy?

                                          [/Frankie Boyle]

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            OK, Gary Glitter then

                                            I don't think counselling is the answer. Whilst I am sure it has a place, it probably won't be structured and confrontational enough. I thnk he deserves a chance at rehabilitation and my suggestion was that he go through a very tough supervised course that other abusers have to go through.
                                            Before programmes are designed for that purpose, there must be some clarity about why paedophiles abuse children (and draw some clear lines between paedophilia and pederastry).

                                            A growing body of opinion regards paedophilia as a sexual orientation in itself. If it is so, it cannot be "cured", just as homosexuality or heterosexuality cannot be "cured" (unless you are a fundamentalist Christian, apparently). Sexual attraction to children would not be a question of subjective preference, though of course the decision to commit sexual acts with children (or usually against children) would still be a question of choice. But because having sex with children feels natural, there often is no remorse attached to their action.

                                            If the sexual orientation theory holds, programmes, counselling and therapy must acknowledge that there is no "cure" or rehabilitation.

                                            But that's the easy part of it. The more difficult part would concern our reaction to paedophiles: would we be able to muster pity for them, and to what extent could such pity be offered?

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              OK, Gary Glitter then

                                              I think "known but unrelated", rather than "family member", is the most common category of abuser. Making teachers' jobs all the harder: it's not just a matter of "Her Dad looks dodgy."

                                              Anyway, GG should be re-admitted to the UK, and subjected to the usual Sex Offenders Register controls, and the government should assist in making this happen anonymously, and sod the Daily Mail.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                OK, Gary Glitter then

                                                Do you honestly believe that the hysteria around Glitter is fuelled by the rational and considered fear that he might reoffend, as opposed to "Urgh, he's a fucking pervert, let's get him"?
                                                That's where the discussion on here is coming from though. What's hysteria in the broader media got to do with anything?

                                                Chippy, why do you think that these courses won't be confrontational enough? The Sexual Offender Treatment Programme at Grenden Prison a while ago was so intense it made the instructors sick.

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  OK, Gary Glitter then

                                                  [/Frankie Boyle]
                                                  Haha, yeah. Hallowe'en, ladies and gentlemen. Hallowe'en. A wonderful time of year for the agoraphobic paedophile. "They're being delivered to the door! In little costumes!"

                                                  I love Frankie Boyle. I really fancy him too.

                                                  Comment

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