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    Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
    The Lib Dems got a million more votes than Labour in the Euros. Despite the handicap of being the Lib Dems.
    Does anybody really expect that to continue if Labour come out as a pro-Remain party?

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      Nope, but I think there's a lot of Remain 2017 Labour voters who won't be coming back. The equivocation has gone on for too long. I'd imagine Labour will lose seats in the South, as well as at least 5 of the 6 gained in scotland.

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        On the topic of bad faith, for the historical record, here are the utternaces of Angela Eagle, on Corbyn's performance in the referendum campaign:

        "Jeremy is up and down the country, pursuing an itinerary that would make a 25-year-old tired, he has not stopped."

        https://www.theguardian.com/politics...kuHDle1nv9SNoY

        That was dated 13th June 2016. But just a fortnuight later, Eagle resigned, stating "Too many of our supporters were taken in by right-wing arguments and I believe this happened, in part, because under your leadership the case to remain in the EU was made with half-hearted ambivalence rather than full-throated clarity.”

        https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...r-full-8292960

        One of these things is not like all the others.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
          Nope, but I think there's a lot of Remain 2017 Labour voters who won't be coming back. The equivocation has gone on for too long. I'd imagine Labour will lose seats in the South, as well as at least 5 of the 6 gained in scotland.
          That may well be true. Anecdotally, I voted Green in the Euros - first time I’ve ever not voted Labour in any election since I came of age in 2000. It was a wrenching decision in prospect, but it felt a lot easier having done it. That tribal chain has been broken for me, I don’t know for how many others.

          That said, it’s reasonable to assume Labour and the Conservatives will improve significantly on their Euro vote shares in a GE. It’s also reasonable to infer from the Euro results that for a significant number of people, the Lib Dems have lost their coalition toxicity - and this amongst 2017 Labour voters, who’d you’d expect to feel that toxicity strongest.

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            Boris in a GE will probably focus minds somewhat, but Labour and their surrogates (cough Dawn Foster cough) need to stop ranting against 2017 Labour voters exercising their democratic right to prioritise Brexit over other political issues. Complaining about the Libs having done an austerity isn't working, particularly when part of the FBPE-ex-Labour critique is a hard Brexit (which is what a customs union with no single market membership is) will engender further austerity. That critique seems entirely reasonable, so Foster is basically peddling a false dichotomy since I'm pretty sure she's a Lexiter.

            I'm nonplussed by today's announcement. Yes, it's Labour yet again inching farther in the right direction, but Jeremy is right we need a GE, and there is a perverse incentive now for Labour Remainers to not want that to happen, because there is no policy for a second referendum after a Labour GE victory*. Which will be pointed out over and over by the Remainer parties, and therefore will probably result in a Labour GE loss.

            * Labour should promise a second referendum even if they win a GE. Negotiate a so-called Labour Brexit (the EU may not want to renegotiate too much on the finer details, but the CU is a bolt-on that everybody would adopt tomorrow and would dramatically lower the stakes on the backstop) and Jez goes full Harold Wilson and sits above the fray.

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              Dawn Foster is very definitely not a Lexiter

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                And

                "complaining about the Libs having done an austerity isn't working, "

                has only proved true in the south in a European Parliament election.

                "es, it's Labour yet again inching farther in the right direction, but Jeremy is right we need a GE, and there is a perverse incentive now for Labour Remainers to not want that to happen, because there is no policy for a second referendum after a Labour GE victory*."

                When you say "Labour Remainers" do you mean Labour supporters who want to stay in the EU or those like Tom Watson and pals who see "Remain"- as they once saw "Ending Free Movement" as the best way t waken Jeremy Corbyn's s position?

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                  I thought second referendum was Labour policy now?

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                    Only in the case of a Tory deal or No Deal. As it stands, if there was a GE, Labour would be committed to trying to negotiate a better deal.

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                      Thanks. Dubious policy then.

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                        They seem to be in favour of a second referendum only when they don’t have the opportunity to offer one. And the Tories won’t.

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                          Well the LibDems, SNP and Greens don't have the opportunity to offer one either

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                            Serious question: what should be on the ballot paper of a new referendum?

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                              Ah, bad faith in action.

                              "Labour should support a second referendum"
                              "We now support a second referendum"
                              "Yes, but you should be supporting Remain in a second referendum"
                              "We now support Remain in a second referendum"
                              "Yes, but you don't actually have the power to call a second referendum"

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                                But you could promise to hold a referendum in the event you win a GE so it's valid to question why that commitment has not been made.

                                I agree that it's not easy to design a ballot question that's fair to all POVs

                                Comment


                                  Satchmo - But that is moving the goalposts again. (Not, I hasten to add, that I'm accusing you of this.)

                                  Labour's commitment today is above and beyond what the Peoples Vote organisation have been constantly attacking them for and demanding of them for nearly three years. And now Labour have gone above and beyond... I've just checked their Twitter feed and they have said precisely nothing.

                                  Comment


                                    I agree that it's not easy to design a ballot question that's fair to all POVs
                                    And yet FBPE orthodoxy over the past few years has been that it's OBVIOUS we need a second referendum and a remain campaign, yet they've been rather less forthcoming on the details of said referendum. (This isn't aimed at you btw, but it's a very notable feature of that particular corner of the political parish to berate whatever the Labour line is and then, when asked precisely what the referendum should ask and what the overall strategy should be, they go all "It's not down to me to work out the details, I'm not a professional politician")

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Reginald Christ

                                      Nothing well ever be good enough for the FBPE-ers.
                                      You're missing a step. It's "well, now that you support holding a second referendum and supporting remain in a second referendum, what have you just spent the last three years fighting against this you fucking dribbling shit gibbon, you're not fit to be left to wipe your own arse let alone run a party, now fuck off."

                                      There has to be a price to be paid for being so fucking spectacularly wrong about something so basic.

                                      I agree that it's not easy to design a ballot question that's fair to all POVs

                                      But there are only three options for the uk. Pass the withdrawal agreement, and leave the EU. Forget the whole thing and stay in the EU, or go for a no deal brexit. So vote on those three options. Anything else would simply be yet another childishly and stupidly run referendum.
                                      Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 09-07-2019, 14:35.

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                                        OK, how do you tell 17.4 million people that their democratic vote doesn't fucking count?

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                                          How many votes count in an average UK general election?

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                                            Apples. Meet oranges.

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                                              (It's usually a bit less than half, isn't it?)

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                                                It seems to be "Lords resigning from Labour" afternoon.

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                                                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                                                  Satchmo - But that is moving the goalposts again. (Not, I hasten to add, that I'm accusing you of this.)

                                                  Labour's commitment today is above and beyond what the Peoples Vote organisation have been constantly attacking them for and demanding of them for nearly three years. And now Labour have gone above and beyond... I've just checked their Twitter feed and they have said precisely nothing.
                                                  Good points, Snake, and I don't disagree. I am on the fence on whether they could do much more and I'm also not sure a 2nd Referendum would be worthwhile given they would have just won a GE with a mandate to negotiate a deal.

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                                                    My own thoughts is that a Labour would use negotiating a deal as a means of kicking the whole thing into the long grass. "It took seven years for Greenland to negotiate a deal for fish" type thing.

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