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    Yep and it's going to create a Shitnami. Whatever about Scotland not being the same as in 1975, the GFA is the elephant in the room. Ignoring devolution is almost as big a sin for Cameron and Osborne as Austerity.
    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 09-07-2019, 21:17.

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      at least English Nats will no longer hide behind a UK flag. Things are prob going to get very awkward for UK non England Tories as the party moves to being full on English Nationalist. Alex Massie has been very good on this. A Czech style divorce from the dominant "partner" is prob more likely than Scotland quitting the Union at this point.
      Last edited by Lang Spoon; 09-07-2019, 21:20.

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        Yep and it's going to create a Shitnami. Whatever about Scotland not being the same as in 1975, the GFA is the elephant in the room.

        Indeed.

        Listening to tonight's Conservative leadership debate was mildly illuminating. Johnson wants to move the backstop out of the WA and include it in the future trading arrangements discussions. Hunt is going to take a whizzo negotiating team to Brussels to win concessions on the existing WA, (I know, I know). Both think that a combination of current technology and various bureaucratic measures will obviate the need for a hard border.

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          Stockpile food so. Expect it'll be the fresh stuff and medicine that runs out post Oct 31 unfortunately. Thank fuck my Maw's chemo has finished by then.
          Last edited by Lang Spoon; 09-07-2019, 21:27.

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            If Corbyn supporters think there is a substantial difference between the levels of public dissent involved in ignoring the result of the referendum, and those involved in implementing a radical left wing programme in government with 40% or less of the vote, they should rap their heads a few times against something hard in the hope it improves functionality.

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              Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
              Ah, bad faith in action.

              "Labour should support a second referendum"
              "We now support a second referendum"
              "Yes, but you should be supporting Remain in a second referendum"
              "We now support Remain in a second referendum"
              "Yes, but you don't actually have the power to call a second referendum"
              A second referendum is a terrible idea.

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                I’m more sympathetic to Berba’s arguments then a lot of people here who voted for Corbyn twice, because I don’t really accept the result was democratic.

                Every EU citizen who wasn’t Irish, Maltese or Cypriot was excluded from a vote which had enormous consequences on their future.

                Every non-EU, non-Commonwealth citizen was excluded from the vote which had only slightly less enormous consequences on their future.

                So, y’know, it was plainly not democratic.

                And yes, Berba is arguing for Irish interests here, but I would say there is not a lot of difference between Irish interests and UK interests on the whole and there is definitely not a lot of difference between Irish interests and Northern Irish interests on Brexit, and one of the most startling things about the past three years is how the interests of a constituent nation of the United Kingdom have been almost completely ignored by, well, England and its politicians. To the point the Conservative and Unionist Party seem like crypto-republicans. Someone who has read too much Freud and too much Irish history would argue that this is some sort of unconscious admission that the UK should get out of Northern Ireland, but whatever the relation of Northern Ireland to the mothers of Conservative MPs, it is very clear to me that the EU seems to have more concern for the interests of Northern Ireland than its own Government. And that is utterly bizarre.

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                  Flynnie is bang on. Ireland is the UK's only real ally in these negotiations, maybe Germany also, but they are losing patience. Everyone else is waiting to pick over your corpse.
                  Last edited by Lang Spoon; 09-07-2019, 21:52.

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                    Excluding EU citizens from voting in the Ref and allowing (white) Commonwealth citizens to do so is another reason for Cameron to burn in Hell forever.

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                      Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                      If Corbyn supporters think there is a substantial difference between the levels of public dissent involved in ignoring the result of the referendum, and those involved in implementing a radical left wing programme in government with 40% or less of the vote, they should rap their heads a few times against something hard in the hope it improves functionality.
                      In both cases it is about who won under the rules of the game. And they are different games. Most people would get that, though I suppose the Bad Faith crowd will pretend not.

                      For what it is worth, I don't think you'll find many people arguing in favour of FPTP round here.

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                        Ok, let me put it another way. If you disregard the result of the referendum, a majority of the population will feel they haven’t voted for your course of action, a significant number will be furious and some will take to the streets. If you enact a radical transformative socialist programme, the same applies. So why be so timorous about the former, if it’s the right thing to do?
                        Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 10-07-2019, 05:55.

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                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post

                          You keep trying to compare a GE, run on a constituency by constituency basis under a FPTP system with a take or leave it Yes/No referendum with a 50%+1 majority.

                          The two are totally incompatible.
                          Oh right, that makes more sense now.

                          All I wanted to do was to puncture the overblown rhetoric of "telling 17.2m people their votes don't count", which reflects nothing more than a position you've already taken, rather than being at all persuasive to anyone who hasn't already taken the same position.

                          I don't think a general election is the same as a referendum. Sorry if I gave you the impression I do.

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                            It's not up to me to have a realistic solution
                            FBPE-ers come out with this one far too often. If you've spent the past three years obsessing over this every waking hour, then surely a realistic solution might have ambled across your thought processes at some point. If you're a political activist on an issue, then yes, it is incumbent on you to float solutions. (This isn't particularly a criticism of Berba, though his hectoring lack of humility about everything is tiresome, but it is an observation about how a lot of the last three years' fruitless public discourse has progressed, or not)

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                              I’m not in favor of a second referendum, but if there was one I think it should ask the same question as the original one - to seek to confirm or overturn the public’s original response to that question. Otherwise I think you have to offer no deal, and the risks of that option winning are too great.

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                                Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                                I’m not in favor of a second referendum
                                Are you in favour of Brexit?

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                                  Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                                  I’m not in favor of a second referendum, but if there was one I think it should ask the same question as the original one - to seek to confirm or overturn the public’s original response to that question. Otherwise I think you have to offer no deal, and the risks of that option winning are too great.
                                  To be honest, I'm also not keen on a second referendum because of that "No Deal" option. However, I'm not sure how you can satisfying the requirement in a democracy to overturn the initial one. (Yes, I know "advisory" and all that, but that ship sailed three years ago.) Simply ignoring the result will make the current options worse and even the option spouted by my Dad - "I'll just not vote anymore" - well, that might sound a good thing in principle but is incredibly corrosive towards the concept of democracy.

                                  I've said it before - that referendum fundamentally broke the structures in this country. A second referendum is simply attempting to put duct tape on a cracked window and pretending it is back to normal. We're basically facing a coup of foreign backed charlatans, aided by an offshore, tax-haven owned media. They don't even care for hiding it anymore - see Kim Darroch - the result of the actions of a group of men who are about to take power thanks to an entire electorate of 120,000 people. It's scary how quickly a centuries old, stable democracy can collapse and be taken over like something out of 70s Africa or 80s South/Central America.

                                  I always wanted to read about situations like this, but I never wanted to be living through one.

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                                    It's looking more and more like a coup for sure.

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                                      Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post

                                      To be honest, I'm also not keen on a second referendum because of that "No Deal" option. However, I'm not sure how you can satisfying the requirement in a democracy to overturn the initial one. (Yes, I know "advisory" and all that, but that ship sailed three years ago.) Simply ignoring the result will make the current options worse and even the option spouted by my Dad - "I'll just not vote anymore" - well, that might sound a good thing in principle but is incredibly corrosive towards the concept of democracy.

                                      I've said it before - that referendum fundamentally broke the structures in this country. A second referendum is simply attempting to put duct tape on a cracked window and pretending it is back to normal. We're basically facing a coup of foreign backed charlatans, aided by an offshore, tax-haven owned media. They don't even care for hiding it anymore - see Kim Darroch - the result of the actions of a group of men who are about to take power thanks to an entire electorate of 120,000 people. It's scary how quickly a centuries old, stable democracy can collapse and be taken over like something out of 70s Africa or 80s South/Central America.

                                      I always wanted to read about situations like this, but I never wanted to be living through one.
                                      Sadly I agree with much of that and have no consolation to offer!

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                                        Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                                        Are you in favour of Brexit?
                                        No, I’m desperate to find an effective way out. My ideal would be for the Commons to overturn the result and use a GE to ratify it.

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                                          If Labour win the next GE will the coup be off or simply watered down?

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                                            I think that if Britain is going to slide into fascism, it may need Corbyn to play the part of the Weimar Republic.

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                                              The next GE will be years after Boris Johnson has completed the coup. I think there's a lot of wishful thinking that his ascendance will bring about a GE.

                                              Like others, I'm doubtful about the merits of a second referendum. I would like all the opposition parties to be shouting about the benefits of being in the EU and the clusterfuck that will come when we're out, so that if there is a referendum they are in a position to make the remain case; and if we withdraw before any second referendum then they're in a position to push for re-accession (and also to highlight the disaster the Tories are plunging us into). And I'd like enough of them to win seats in a hypothetical but unlikely GE to have a sufficiently massive majority to just overturn Brexit. But the case for a second referendum itself seems stretched - it is always a means to the end of remaining - and the formulation of it looks very messy.

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                                                Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                                                I think that if Britain is going to slide into fascism, it may need Corbyn to play the part of the Weimar Republic.
                                                Johnson and pals are quite capable of doing that on their own. And the Weimar Rpublic was in many ways an excellent - though sadly didn't deal with the far right strongly enough

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                                                  Only because they saw the far-right as a better and easily managed alternative to the social revolution of the far-left.

                                                  Mmmm, hang on...

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                                                    I think it was the military ruling caste that had that view not the mainstream or centre left Weimar parties. The problem was the left being split, as now, and under-estimating the street thugs.
                                                    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 10-07-2019, 18:00.

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