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    Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
    I think you’re probably right with 2, Snake. I’ve been arguing for some time that all us Centrist Dads should join/support other parties, but I don’t seem to be in the majority.
    Why not stay, back the leadership, and work for what will be a genuinely transformative Socialist government?

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      Because if they wanted that, why on earth did they join the Labour Party?

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        Originally posted by HeavyDracula View Post

        Why not stay, back the leadership, and work for what will be a genuinely transformative Socialist government?
        Fair question. Well, first the "transformative Socialist government" bit - I've been told by his supporters here and in real life that Corbyn's government will be transformative socialist; mildly social democratic; and indistinguishable from what Ed Miliband offered. Stephen Bush in this week's New Statesman podcast is good on another strength of Corbyn, that he allows his supporters to project onto him what they want to see.

        But if it actually is going to be a transformative Socialist government - well, what's it going to cost us? Every month this country seems more polarised, and I don't want a Labour government that's going to exacerbate that. I don't want a Labour government that exists as a socialist counterbalance to a fascist opposition. I want a Labour government that's going to build a consensus across society for ending austerity, sorting the housing crisis, getting my kid the educational support he needs and is currently being denied because the LEA can't afford it. I want the heat taken out and things to get done.

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          Well, considering those are all official Labour policies right now, what's stopping you?

          As always - and this isn't aimed at you - criticism of Corbyn is very rarely about his actual policies. It's very, very personal.

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            Here's Tom Watson, the windbag that keeps the blades turning - and occasionally planting them in the back of his opponents.

            https://twitter.com/simonk_133/status/1147061366387294210

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              Well, the grassroots stuff I mentioned is all about building that consensus, and I'm afraid that we're slightly on the way to a fascist element in this country already. Ergo, it needs opposing.

              I actually think that there is a consensus building across society for ending austerity. I contend that that is partly to do with Labour endlessly harping on about it the last few years, as opposed to the previous equivocation.

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                Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post

                Fair question. Well, first the "transformative Socialist government" bit - I've been told by his supporters here and in real life that Corbyn's government will be transformative socialist; mildly social democratic; and indistinguishable from what Ed Miliband offered. Stephen Bush in this week's New Statesman podcast is good on another strength of Corbyn, that he allows his supporters to project onto him what they want to see.

                But if it actually is going to be a transformative Socialist government - well, what's it going to cost us? Every month this country seems more polarised, and I don't want a Labour government that's going to exacerbate that. I don't want a Labour government that exists as a socialist counterbalance to a fascist opposition. I want a Labour government that's going to build a consensus across society for ending austerity, sorting the housing crisis, getting my kid the educational support he needs and is currently being denied because the LEA can't afford it.
                Would that not actually be pretty transformative and socialist? That'd be building something like the Folkhemmet in the UK, which even Attlee's government never came close to.

                I want the heat taken out and things to get done.
                I mean, who's fault is this really? Corbyn's not facing Edward Heath and a load of wets at PMQ's every week. It's an incompetent fool who handed the keys of her party to its hard right, and will be replaced by a complete fucking oaf.

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                  Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                  Well, considering those are all official Labour policies right now, what's stopping you?

                  As always - and this isn't aimed at you - criticism of Corbyn is very rarely about his actual policies. It's very, very personal.
                  Yeah, I guess so. People think that Corbyn does not share their values, so they find the things he says antagonistic.

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                    Originally posted by johnr View Post
                    Well, the grassroots stuff I mentioned is all about building that consensus, and I'm afraid that we're slightly on the way to a fascist element in this country already. Ergo, it needs opposing.

                    I actually think that there is a consensus building across society for ending austerity. I contend that that is partly to do with Labour endlessly harping on about it the last few years, as opposed to the previous equivocation.
                    But exacerbating and contributing to the polarisation can't be the answer. Fighting fire with fire - how well does that work out?

                    Your second line I have no issue with - certainly, Ed Miliband was shit. [Can't remember if I've said this before - I voted for him believing he would be the candidate who wouldn't split the party so we could fight the Tories more effectively. Ha!]
                    Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 05-07-2019, 09:10.

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                      Originally posted by Flynnie View Post

                      Would that not actually be pretty transformative and socialist? That'd be building something like the Folkhemmet in the UK, which even Attlee's government never came close to.



                      I mean, who's fault is this really? Corbyn's not facing Edward Heath and a load of wets at PMQ's every week. It's an incompetent fool who handed the keys of her party to its hard right, and will be replaced by a complete fucking oaf.
                      I think what people see as transformative and socialist are the big-ticket items like renationalisation and higher education funding, which they're I think obliged to deliver, and after which they will have burned all their money.

                      If Corbyn was facing Heath and a load of wets, I think it would be reasonable to push as left wing an agenda as possible. The space would be there to operate in.
                      Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 05-07-2019, 09:10.

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                        Renationalization of the railways is a no-brainer* but I'm not sure you could do it with utilities. Better would be to tax BT et al at a higher rate.

                        I don't get the centrist argument that Labour is too fixed on identity politics at the expense of redistribution as if they were mutually exclusive. Corbyn is much more redistributive than Blair or Brown.

                        *Blair should get more stick than he does for not doing it.
                        Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 05-07-2019, 09:20.

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                          Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
                          I don't get the centrist argument that Labour is too fixed on identity politics at the expense of redistribution as if they were mutually exclusive.
                          The key to understanding the centrist arguments is that every single one of them is about reflection. Too focused on identity politics. Unwilling to compromise. Willing to purge those who don't agree with them. Cannot effectively manage or lead. Or my personal favourite... Unelectable.

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                            Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post

                            I think what people see as transformative and socialist are the big-ticket items like renationalisation and higher education funding, which they're I think obliged to deliver, and after which they will have burned all their money.
                            If I had a Centrist Bingo card, I would be crossing this one off.

                            Comment


                              Renationalisation doesn't burn all the money.

                              The fighting fire with fire bit is, I think, the wrong way round. The country was already alight. I think it's best to see the rise of Corbyn as a reaction to what was already happening. Austerity had been 6 years in the doing. There were increasing numbers of homeless, etc etc, and people realised that we couldn't continue broadly accepting the narrative as it was. And if that narrative hadn't been reversed, austerity would be even worse - even worse - than what we have now.

                              As a very small example of the battles that Labour has to fight, here is the BBC's Evan Davies congratulating a young very-right-winger on his meteoric rise to prominence https://twitter.com/EvanHD/status/1146729447426592768

                              Now, some might see that as simply a nice exchange between people who will come across each other in the workplace, and therefore nothing sinister. Possibly through my own paranoia, I see it as normalising a move towards the right, cos I cannot see any circumstance that said BBC political presenter would do the same with a left-wing voice. It's institutional. The discourse in this country is generally shaped by reactionaries, so needs opposing all of the way, even if it does come across as paranoid.

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                                And what the fuck is a fucking Guido Fawkes "journalist" doing anywhere near the fucking BBC? It's not as if there is a tiny pool of journalists willing to get themselves on the telly.

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                                  For me, it's not so much they have him on - they had Mendoza from the Canary on once (though maybe never again). But I can't see Davies would have ever congratulated her on her rise to prominence. Nor would any other BBC political broadcaster that I can think of.

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                                    Originally posted by E10 Rifle View Post
                                    As for Williamson, fuck him to be honest.
                                    It isn't just Williamson, though, is it? It's been on going, one after another. First Livingston, then Wadsworth, then Walker, then Williamson, then ... And each time the Wiser Heads implore us not to make this one the hill that we die on (I remember someone using that phrase on here about Wadsworth; Marina Hyde used it about Williamson in her column the other day). If this goes on WE'RE GOING TO RUN OUT OF FUCKING HILLS. And most of these hills weren't even indefensible. It just seemed easier to surrender them.

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                                      I still don't know what Wadsworth did that was remotely antisemitic.

                                      Livingstone needed to put a sock in it from the second he started mentioning the Haavara Agreement.

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                                        Originally posted by Flynnie View Post
                                        I still don't know what Wadsworth did that was remotely antisemitic.

                                        Livingstone needed to put a sock in it from the second he started mentioning the Haavara Agreement.
                                        Even Ruth Smeeth didn't seem to think Wadsworth's comment was anti-Semitic until someone behind her whispered about it. Of course, he was thrown out for 'bringing the party in to disrepute' but that's almost as tenuous as claiming that criticising someone for hob-nobbing with a Telegraph journalist is anti-Semitic.

                                        But no, we were told not to die on that hill. Or the next one. Or the next one. When they finally get to the lower slopes of Mount Corbyn will we be allowed to die on that?
                                        Last edited by Lurgee; 05-07-2019, 12:02. Reason: Because apostrophes matter.

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                                          Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post

                                          If I had a Centrist Bingo card, I would be crossing this one off.
                                          Well, ok. I wasn’t rehearsing talking points, just my own hopes and fears.

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                                            Originally posted by Lurgee View Post

                                            Even Ruth Smeeth didn't seem to think Wadsworth comment was anti-Semitic until someone behind her whispered it. Of course, he was thrown out for 'bringing the party in to disrepute' but that's almost as tenuous as claiming that criticising someone for hob-nobbing with a Telegraph journalist is anti-Semitic.

                                            But no, we were told not to die on that hill. Or the next one. Or the next one. When they finally get to the lower slopes of Mount Corbyn will we be allowed to die on that?
                                            On my personal scorecard, Wadsworth is the only one who got screwed. At worst, you're talking that kind of combative, oppositional 80s leftist activist that everybody else in the room can't stand. But I don't see why that person should be expelled from the Labour Party.

                                            Walker and Livingstone were playing fast and loose with history, and Williamson supporting Gilad Atzmon, who is a damn wingnut, is really as bad as anything he's ever said, which I think was taken out of context anyway.

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                                              Wadsworth was very unlucky that his hearing was about a month after the Corbyn Mural story. Given the tensions at the time, it was not inconceivable that a leadership election would have happened had Wadsworth not been expelled, and one that was fought over the issue of whether or not Jeremy Corbyn was a racist. That happening was not in anyone's interests.

                                              Interestingly (or of course, not), while checking that date, I noticed that Wadsworth had at the time of the Smeeth incident only been a Labour member for a month.
                                              Last edited by Lucy Waterman; 05-07-2019, 10:45.

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                                                Oh Wadsworth was treated appallingly, as was the guy in my CLP who only found out about his (still-ongoing) suspension when the Jewish Chronicle rang him up about it (having probably been briefed by sources close to the MP and her CLP-secretary Dad); others have brought about their own problems. Because (and get your head around this if you can), some complaints about antisemitism have been genuine and concerning, and some have not.

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                                                  I’m old enough to remember when the Chief Rabbi thought the Chakrabarti report was excellent but needed to be implemented in full. Amazing how Smeeth & co managed to turn it into a whitewash.

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                                                    The attacks on Shami Chakrabarti were utterly despicable. She's done more for equality and liberty in this country than most of her attackers combined.

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