Corb Blimey!

[E10 Rifle]

the Party still casts itself as representing what's left of the working class, most of whom don't vote for them.

Not sure that's true – the link's certainly less automatic than it was, but a cursory glance at the most 'working class' constituencies, and most of them overwhelmingly return Labour MPs. And we need to avoid the mistake that even some on the "Blue Corbynism" wing are making, of assuming the working class is entirely white.

As for Williamson, fuck him to be honest. He's an opportunist liability, though it is possible to take both sides of that argument as essentially true ie 1) that there is an at-best tin ear to antisemitism among some elements on the left, and 2) that antisemitism complaints have nonetheless been exaggerated and weaponised to attack the left, which I've seen happen in a most disgraceful and opportunistic fashion, including against Jewish people themselves.

[And what NHH said, the decline of private-sector trade unionism has been an absolute disaster for our politics]

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

yeah, people are having some funny ideas about working class people, largely based (as far as I can make out) on the endless media painting of these people as the doughty yeomen of brexit, when I strongly suspect that this is mostly a lie designed to paralyze Labour as an opposition to Brexit. If labour actually were just a middle class party with middle class voters, they would have about 8 seats. Also I'm not convinced that Working class english people are by and large as racist as the upper class and establishment that runs the UK. There's a lot of history that would suggest otherwise.

As for Williamson, fuck him to be honest. He's an opportunist liability, though it is possible to take both sides of that argument as essentially true ie 1) that there is an at-best tin ear to antisemitism among some elements on the left, and 2) that antisemitism complaints have nonetheless been exaggerated and weaponised to attack the left, which I've seen happen in a most disgraceful and opportunistic fashion, including against Jewish people themselves.

It's just sloppiness isn't it. It's just amateurish. If you as a party are going to take anything other than a pro-Israeli govt stance, you have got to be utterly bulletproof on the issue of anti-semitism within your party. You have got to be so clear and disciplined that the attacks of mark regev bounce right off you. And it really shouldn't have been hard for the labour party to get to that position very quickly from 2015 on. There was very little evidence of institutional anti-semitism in the labour party when the milliband brothers were fighting it out as the two candidates for leadership. It just required a few tweaks, and a lot of vigilance. This entire angle of attack on labour primarily does damage to them not because the party is now the nazis, but because it makes the leadership and the party machine look incredibly incompetent.

[NHH]

Well, in that respect they've been helped by some incredible shitbags within the party machinery who've basically thrown sand into the gears.
I don't think Berba appreciates just how tenuous the hold on power the Corbyn people have had, until relatively recently. They've known that 90% of the party's staff were actively working against them, but couldn't just sack them all. They also have a party structure which can't just be ripped up and undone on the basis of Leadership fiat on the back of two victories. Corbyn is the unchallenged an impregnable leader of precisely the weakest part of the entire structure, the CLPs, which has been purposely designed to be as weak as possible from the party's very foundation. If you're schtick is to do socialism democratically, and you've historically banged on about internal party democracy, that means that every little thing takes time in building coalitions.

As with everything else in British politics, where we are is pretty much both the last and worst place to be starting from, but banging on about how things aren't going quickly enough is frankly pointless unless you have a time machine on offer.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I'm kind of getting tired of hearing how hard things are for the current leadership of the Labour party, as an excuse for them failing to keep up their end of things. Being in charge of a political party is like trying to herd cats, but you know that before you start. And what you can do right from the start is make it abundantly clear that your criticisms of the policies of the govt of israel have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with an abhorrence of collective punishment, and anyone conflating those two things can fuck off out of the party now. That is likely not something that would meet much internal opposition, (well maybe the first bit but certainly not the important second bit.) If you're going to embark on a challenging course like opposing israeli govt actions in Gaza and the west bank, you have to be prepared, and you have to be disciplined, and you have to make it abundantly clear that you care about this sort of thing. That way it is much harder for people to use the actions of those who stray over a lot of lines (Which you are always going to have) against the leadership.

[Nefertiti2]

I'm getting equally sick of a poster from Ireland who is not a member of the Labour party laying down the law. You have no knowledge of the lengths sections of the Jewish community are prepared to go in defence of the current Israeli government (though the shit that Ed Miliband took both of whose parents are Holocaust survivors should tell you) nor do you have any understanding or interest of the deviousness of the Labour right or the state of the British media. So why not listen for a change. You might learn something.

[NHH]

Corbyn hasn't gone out of his way to make Israel a policy issue - he's just not been hypocritical in terms of his previously expressed positions. He's not made much of it, because one of the main criticisms of him has been the 30-year focus on foreign policy. It would have involved him deciding to make it an issue in late 2015, then using his complete non-power to make none of this happen. I mean, it's risible wishful thinking that by not doing Berba's suggested outcomes Corbyn et al have dropped a massive bollock.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Corbyn hasn't gone out of his way to make Israel a policy issue - he's just not been hypocritical in terms of his previously expressed positions. He's not made much of it, because one of the main criticisms of him has been the 30-year focus on foreign policy. It would have involved him deciding to make it an issue in late 2015, then using his complete non-power to make none of this happen. I mean, it's risible wishful thinking that by not doing Berba's suggested outcomes Corbyn et al have dropped a massive bollock.

Nah, I'm not buying that. He's the leader of the labour party. this sort of thing is important. Particularly if you know that you are going to come under attack from the israeli embassy for your opposition to the policies of the netanyahu govt.. The purpose of making a statement at the beginning is that a) people know where you stand b) you make it clear what your position is, and can be won over by it. c) it makes it clear what you will not tolerate d) makes it abundantly clear that you are aware of risks and dangers, so you set yourself up to receive credit when dealing with problems, rather than getting blame for seeming to have been dragged to this position.

But that's just part of a wider problem with this incarnation of the labour party. They've never actually been clear on anything, and they've never had the courage of their convictions to lay out what they want, what it will cost, and what it will achieve. On a wide range of issues but most notably on brexit. But this has been a problem with the labour party for a very long time. They seem to operate in reaction to the tories rather than having any goals or intentions of their own, that people can get behind as an alternative.

Nef, The moment the collapse of your fucking society ceases to be our problem, is the moment I'll stop being fucking furious with all of the fucking useless cunts involved in this disaster. I don't have any dog in the internal labour fuckwittery. I just want them to be less heroically shit.

[Nefertiti2]

Mould

The fact that Ireland will also be affected by the collective delusion that has seized first the Conservative Party, then the media and large sections of the British Public doesn’t meabbthat your shouting random daily mail articles contributes anything to the conversation.

[Flynnie]

Not sure that's true – the link's certainly less automatic than it was, but a cursory glance at the most 'working class' constituencies, and most of them overwhelmingly return Labour MPs. And we need to avoid the mistake that even some on the "Blue Corbynism" wing are making, of assuming the working class is entirely white.

As for Williamson, fuck him to be honest. He's an opportunist liability, though it is possible to take both sides of that argument as essentially true ie 1) that there is an at-best tin ear to antisemitism among some elements on the left, and 2) that antisemitism complaints have nonetheless been exaggerated and weaponised to attack the left, which I've seen happen in a most disgraceful and opportunistic fashion, including against Jewish people themselves.

[And what NHH said, the decline of private-sector trade unionism has been an absolute disaster for our politics]

Not just that, but that being working class involves working in a factory or as a builder or something. C1 and C2s have almost the exact same weekly wage. The difference is something like £10 a week. But C1 is primarily service provision, teachers, nurses, office workers while C2 is builders and factory workers. So you get this nonsense about how the working class doesn't vote for Labour while posho university graduates do because people haven't figured out that service workers on 25K a year are working class. Also, C1 is far larger in size than C2, and C2 is disproportionately men. So there's those factors too.

[johnr]

They seem to operate in reaction to the tories rather than having any goals or intentions of their own, that people can get behind as an alternative.

Well, about 40% of the population got behind their 'goals or intentions' at the GE, up 20-odd% in a few weeks. So that's bollocks.

I reckon Corbyn has quite a lot of courage of his convictions. In fact, a few pages ago it might have been you berating him for not changing those convictions since the 1970s, or something.

To recap; Corbyn got the leadership because of some totally shit rule-changes, that were in fact supposed to benefit the 'other' side of Labour; this was to his, my, and all my friend's surprise who had immediately joined up to get a vote; so, I'm afraid he/his supporters didn't have a fully-worked plan to deal with every situation under the sun. All they had was his convictions, his voting record, and his ambitions to change the make-up of the party. Those 3 things were, of course, going to bring down the attacks from the Tories, the press and broadcast media, most of his own CLP and a large number of members, just for a start. This was somewhat predictable, though even I've been taken back by the relentless ferocity, which right up to the last couple of days has included a coded but widely-reported-without-critique attack on him and the membership from his deputy leader, and some civil servants briefing that he is too frail to govern (tbf though, I think you're of that mind too).

But, as I've said a few times on this thread, it really isn't about Corbyn. He's just a cipher; he can't go, yet, cos there's a GE imminent, but whether that's kicked down the road or, indeed, held, and Labour wins, he won't be Labour leader for too long. And in a few years (I know, I know...), some of those 200+ young people I saw at the TWT event the other year, on a Saturday night, discussing 'how can we change the economy to better suit the working class' (or something), can come through. Changing the Labour Party, not to mention the way politics is done in this country, will take a while.

I get why you're angry TAB. So am I. So are a lot of people on this board. It's a complete shitshow over here, and very deeply upsetting. I think the reason I get a bit annoyed with your contribution to the debate is that you make articulate, sweeping statements that - like the one I opened with here - are on the one hand often contradictory, and on the other context-free (like your lack of knowledge about who was actually running the 'incredibly incompetent' party machine for the first couple of years of Corbyn's leadership).

That all being said - and this may come across as snark, but please be genuinely assured that it's not - you have a very 'this is how it should, and could, have been done' confidence and intelligence that is the opposite of what you describe as the vacillations of the Labour Party. So, why haven't you stood for office in your country, if outlining and achieving all of those policies and strategies is so straightforward and simple? What stops you?

[NHH]

In the first weeks after Corbyn was elected, they could barely meet in a room without being spied on by colleagues. It was attritional at every single step of the way in the first year. Naming a shadow cabinet was an inordinate challenge; they were attacked by supposed fellow travellers for not promoting women to the top jobs. The cynicism of the bastards they were up against was utterly breathtaking. The idea that Corbyn had the time and space to take these could take these steps , I repeat, absolute fucking fantasy land. The idea that anyone would have listened is equally fantastical.

[Lucy Waterman]

The whole Corbyn project thrives on being opposed, though. Individuals are conflated with institutions to provide the maximum number of enemies. And what you get is the relentless shriek of the Momentum retweets - look who hates us, hate them back. It works really well, and it’s disingenuous to claim this hasn’t helped sustain the movement.

[Nefertiti2]

The whole Corbyn project thrives on being opposed, though. Individuals are conflated with institutions to provide the maximum number of enemies. And what you get is the relentless shriek of the Momentum retweets - look who hates us, hate them back. It works really well, and it’s disingenuous to claim this hasn’t helped sustain the movement.

Given that the only support that Corbyn has received from almost the entire experienced PLP is that on good days deigned not to brief against the leadership it’s hardly surprising. Even when it was clear that a Government considerably more right Wing than Margaret Thatcher‘s was prepared to countenance everything from deporting British citizens to no deal Brexit it still seems that many of the ruht of Labour would prefer defeat for Corbyn whatever the consequences.

Corbyn offered a; kinds of roles to the right- they sulked.

Those like Keir Starmer who are on the right but have knuckled down have done absolutely fine.

The opposers are those who consider the Labour Party is their private fiefdom.

[johnr]

I generally think that the Momentum accounts are not that oppositional, and are mostly positive, but maybe I'm wrong on that. What is definitely more positive is their, and Labour's grassroots organising. I mentioned TWT earlier - I've been so encouraged to see so many young people thinking, campaigning, engaging. It gives me great hope, and I think is a much-underreported aspect of the last few years.

[Nefertiti2]

The only young people who have been appearing in the ranks of the PLP were the children inthe queue for safe seats- Joe Dromey. Will Straw Emily Benn and so on.

[Lang Spoon]

Are there any figures on current membership? Sensibles are now insinuating a drop/dead folk remaining on the lists/Labour not publishing up to date figures.

[johnr]

A few months ago Formby was tweeting that the membership, far from diminishing, was increasing, though the actual figures seem pretty guarded. I'd be surprised if there isn't a big drop-off about now, partly to do with Brexit, and partly cos those who didn't like the change of direction might have stayed for a while either to fight it or in the hope that it would change back. That's not that likely, so I can understand their reasoning, even though I wish they'd stay.

[ursus arctos]

As of February

Labour party membership has declined by more than 10% from a peak of 575,000 in summer 2017 after Jeremy Corbyn’s stronger-than-expected performance in the general election, according to new figures seen by the Guardian.

The figures, shown to the Guardian by a senior party insider, suggest net membership has declined by around 6,000 in each of the past two months, from 524,000 at the start of December, to 512,000.

[johnr]

That's about the time Formby was responding, I think. Odd, that report - the actual figures were apparently shown to the Guardian, but they only 'suggest' a decline? Did they see them or not?

[Lang Spoon]

If the figures aren't being released over a longish period I'd suspect they are are declining. The SNP were very quiet around 2017 election as the membership had prob fallen to under 120000. Then they released figures last year with the HoC library as Brexit got worser and worser showing them around 125000, prob more than the entire UK Tories at the time.

[ursus arctos]

That's about the time Formby was responding, I think. Odd, that report - the actual figures were apparently shown to the Guardian, but they only 'suggest' a decline? Did they see them or not?

I found that phrasing weird too.

Maybe they didn't have a time series?

[HeavyDracula]

In my sleepy, Tory-hellhole CLP we've lost about 5% of our members in the last year. Brexit is a poison that will kill us all.

[Lucy Waterman]

I generally think that the Momentum accounts are not that oppositional, and are mostly positive, but maybe I'm wrong on that. What is definitely more positive is their, and Labour's grassroots organising. I mentioned TWT earlier - I've been so encouraged to see so many young people thinking, campaigning, engaging. It gives me great hope, and I think is a much-underreported aspect of the last few years.

Oh I can believe all of that, John - I’m not saying the furious oppositional stuff is all that’s going on, but that it’s a big part of the movement’s life force. It’s the wind that keeps the blades turning. And you may well be right about the social media stuff - all I see are the things reposted on here, which seem to tend towards the “ritual denunicaton” end of things.

[Snake Plissken]

1. Momentum != Labour grassroots
2. If they are fuelled by fighting the Sensibles undermining of what they are trying to do, then maybe the Sensibles should stop undermining what they are trying to do.

I said it two years ago, if Corbyn is apparently so inept and incompetent that he is going to fail, then let him fail on his own terms. But for some strange reason the right wing of the Party can't let themselves do that.

[Lucy Waterman]

I think you’re probably right with 2, Snake. I’ve been arguing for some time that all us Centrist Dads should join/support other parties, but I don’t seem to be in the majority.