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    Do you really think that's "apologetic"?

    Leaving aside the lies about Labour and how it has always been anti-racist, that is.

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      Originally posted by TonTon View Post
      Do you really think that's "apologetic"?

      Leaving aside the lies about Labour and how it has always been anti-racist, that is.
      The bit where he says "I deeply regret, and apologise for, my recent choice of words" and the bit where he describes his statement as a "sincere apology" and the bit where he says "I am therefore sorry" strike me as a bit apologetic.

      Of course, if you're going to convince yourself otherwise there isn't much I can say to change your mind.

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        Lol.

        If you have to say it's sincere, it probably isn't. And that isn't.

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          Its not an apology at all, it’s a continuation of the argument. That’s why he goes on about “how few cases there are”, which has nothing to do with making a sincere apology.

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            Originally posted by TonTon View Post
            Lol.

            If you have to say it's sincere, it probably isn't. And that isn't.
            Oh, give over. If he didn't say it was a sincere apology then you'd be claiming that it was evidence of his insincerity ...

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              Re-lol.

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                Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post
                Its not an apology at all, it’s a continuation of the argument. That’s why he goes on about “how few cases there are”, which has nothing to do with making a sincere apology.
                It really isn't, but I accept you're another one who will refuse to accept evidence.

                Not that that detracts from the fact that Nandy was utterly wrong in her claim Williamson had not apologised.

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                  Originally posted by TonTon View Post
                  Re-lol.
                  I am devastated by your rhetorical prowess.

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                    Originally posted by Lurgee View Post

                    It really isn't, but I accept you're another one who will refuse to accept evidence.

                    Not that that detracts from the fact that Nandy was utterly wrong in her claim Williamson had not apologised.
                    I’m talking about evidence, though. If he is sincere, why include the irrelevant and inevitably contentious claim about there being few incidences of anti semitism within Labour? Why include that when he could just have left it out?

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                      Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post

                      I’m talking about evidence, though. If he is sincere, why include the irrelevant and inevitably contentious claim about there being few incidences of anti semitism within Labour? Why include that when he could just have left it out?
                      I don't see how explaining the context undermines the apology. It isn't evidence; it's a Rorschach test and you are seeing what you want to see in it. I suppose you might say I am as well, only I don't carry a torch for Williamson. I just happened to notice a clear and obvious untruth in what Nandy wrote in the FT.

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                        Originally posted by Lucy Waterman View Post

                        Can you expand on what you mean by Blue Corbynism, E10? Outside of the movement it’s easy to be unaware of the divides and see it all as a bloc.
                        There’s a strain of anti-EU socially conservative activists, mainly from RMT and FBU, who seem to find it within themselves to love both Corbyn and Donald Trump. I mean, they’ll probably deny the latter, but their consistent aping of alt-right talking points, eg Soros bux, gives away the game.

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                          I knew of them as "old fashioned Union types"...The kind that blames immigration for making it harder for the working man to strike and drive a hard bargain with the bosses...

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                            So today, Corbyn is a "womaniser", according to the Spectator. Thought he could barely walk on Friday.

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                              Shagged out.

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                                Originally posted by Flynnie View Post

                                There’s a strain of anti-EU socially conservative activists, mainly from RMT and FBU, who seem to find it within themselves to love both Corbyn and Donald Trump. I mean, they’ll probably deny the latter, but their consistent aping of alt-right talking points, eg Soros bux, gives away the game.
                                Ah right - thanks. How silly.

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                                  There’s a strain of anti-EU socially conservative activists, mainly from RMT and FBU, who seem to find it within themselves to love both Corbyn and Donald Trump. I mean, they’ll probably deny the latter, but their consistent aping of alt-right talking points, eg Soros bux, gives away the game.

                                  I remember coming across a survey of Irish people a couple of years ago that really opened my eyes to something that I had long suspected. The Headline of it was that around 53% of people considered themselves left wing economically, but about two thirds of those people were socially authoritarian rather than liberal. they were left wing economically because those were policies that benefited them financially, but were not very socially progressive. Which I suppose goes a long way to explaining why the Labour party in Ireland struggles so much because all those people traditionally voted for Fianna Fail. and now some of them vote for Sinn Fein.

                                  The thing about the UK is that both of those groups were shovelled into the one party, and people have to keep remembering that for everyone who votes for the labour party in the hope of pursuing policies that will create a better life for society in general, and by extension make a better country for them to live in, there is someone who votes for the labour party because they don't have very much money and would like the govt to spend money on them. and fuck everyone who isn't them. A lot of the UKIP voters who came back to Labour at the last election are the sort of people who are disgusted that money is being spent on teaching yoga to one legged iraqi lesbians instead of being given to them.

                                  That is the tension that is eating at left wing parties across europe. Left wing parties have been particularly timid at redistribution, which is what keeps this coalition alive, and what these economically left wing, socially conservative people see is that they're not getting any more money or services, and the only wins are being had by the Gays or the foreigns, so they get fucking furious. (This is not unique to the UK, this is why we essentially lock up asylum seekers in hostels, because if we gave them council housing, all the people who can't get it would completely lose their shit and a chunk of the population would turn nazi.)

                                  Something that people are missing about the rise of populism across europe is that not only do they push the line about the yoga to the iraqis, but they promise to just give people money. That's a big part of the popularity of these parties. They say to mostly old people a) we will give you more money regardless of any stupid rules. b) wouldn't the world be better if we went back to a society based on the prejudices of the old people when you were young?

                                  This is simply a problem of society not just being split on an economic left/right axis, but also on the socially conservative/socially liberal axis as well. It's not an easy problem to deal with but what we are seeing with the current labour party is what happens if you try and pretend that it doesn't exist. At some point you can't be a socially liberal and conservative party. At some point you have to choose. This split would have happened a long time ago in English politics if you had a different political system.
                                  Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 01-07-2019, 14:14.

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                                    Interesting pov, TAB. It reminds me of a book I read about a radical commune in Sheffield. At one point the inhabitants tried to help the families of striking miners, none of whom liked vegetarian food. Because there is a big difference between being a middle class adherent of anarchism and being in a union because otherwise you will have no rights whatsoever. In a very different vein but similar theme, the movie Pride showed that a lot of mining communities weren't socially progressive on gay rights at all. (Although that changed with the NUM later supporting gay rights in the UK Labour Party)

                                    I read an interesting pov piece recently that Labour voters tend to be middle class but the Party still casts itself as representing what's left of the working class, most of whom don't vote for them. It's why there is still so much support in Labour for Remain when the "Labour areas" often voted Brexit.

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                                      There was research by Thomas Piketty about voting in the US, UK, various European countries, and what you have is this coalition coming apart across the board, between the progressive middle-class and the downtrodden lumpens.

                                      I think a big part of this is the decline of unionisation in the private sector, where such unions historically played the role of political education agents. Once the union declined (or just stopped funding this shit) it left a massive hole filled by whomever controlled the media, basically. This group had a residual hatred of the Tories who were the boss class, and whom the vestigial class memory of these people was that they aren't for the likes of us.

                                      But once a new non-Tory right of centre party comes along without the historic baggage, it starts to feed very nicely given this happens at the same time as the party of the left is basically failing on its side of the bargain to redistribute. They get into all sorts of trouble trying to signal to this group that they really are strong as fuck by passing useless legislation to prove that they have the rod in their cocks to lock up the muslims for 90 days and other bollocks, which in turn drives the other end of the coalition away to the Greens and Lib Dems.

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                                        Hence why the Danish Social Democrats just ran on a ticket of redistribution and racism.

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                                          With the interesting consequence of their vote only going up by 1%, the more socially liberal and/or leftist parties recording gains, and the far-right party losing a ton of seats.

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                                            people angry being spent on teaching yoga to one legged iraqi lesbians instead of being given to them.
                                            the 1980’s called. They said they wanted Berbaslug’s copy of the Daily Mail back.

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                                              the 1980’s called. They said they wanted Berbaslug’s copy of the Daily Mail back.

                                              That's straight down the line Littlejohn that is. It combines his twin obsessions of homosexuality and refugees, while wrapping the whole thing up in a sneer at multiculturalism while talking about a thing that loads of english people do.
                                              Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 01-07-2019, 18:37.

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                                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                                the 1980’s called. They said they wanted Berbaslug’s copy of the Daily Mail back.

                                                That's straight down the line Littlejohn that is.
                                                That is a common sentiment even today.
                                                and when the one legged Iraqi lesbian complains, she is accused of making up or embellishment and her complaints replaced with lies.

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                                                  Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                                  That is a common sentiment even today.
                                                  and when the one legged Iraqi lesbian complains, she is accused of making up or embellishment and her complaints replaced with lies.
                                                  it's really important though that the one legged iraqi lesbian in the story, doesn't actually exist, nor is anyone getting free yoga lessons. It's just a fucking hateful lie

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                                                    Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                                    it's really important though that the one legged iraqi lesbian in the story, doesn't actually exist, nor is anyone getting free yoga lessons. It's just a fucking hateful lie
                                                    I dunno telling outright lies as a debating tactic isn't something OTF is averse to.

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