Corb Blimey!

[ursus arctos]

The Blairites are cunts.

Corbyn is hopelessly trapped by his Cold War era world view and incapable of change.

You are alll fucked.

[Nefertiti2]

Tony Blair is a cunt. So is Jeremy Corbyn. A Stalinst Trotskyist thick cunt.

[MsD]

Thanks both x

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I would have said that Blairites being a burning bag of dog shit, shouldn't distract from Corbynites being a burning bag of cat shit. Similar in a lot of the bad ways but probably a bit more toxic.

[Etienne]

I think TAB is giving too much weight to the 2017 manifesto as an indication of what a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government would want. It was clearly one that was drafted not to frighten the electorate and to be one that a divided party could all (broadly) support. I also think broadly people are failing to understand their psychology (which is crucial to their Brexit policy too) which is that these people have been a minority group within a minority party for most of their political lives. Suddenly they are on the brink of power. I think they're overwhelming motivation for everything is "please, let's not fuck it up now". That caution may indeed be the reason why they fuck it up now, but it's wrong to see their equivocation and triangulation as indicative of what they actually think.

[Diable Rouge]

Unusual for Plaid to win a seat in Cardiff?:

http://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1098725921576624129

[Disco Child Ballads]

It's happened before, and it may be more to with local issues rather than the state of Labour nationally. That's still a big swing towards Plaid though.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I think TAB is giving too much weight to the 2017 manifesto as an indication of what a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government would want. It was clearly one that was drafted not to frighten the electorate and to be one that a divided party could all (broadly) support. I also think broadly people are failing to understand their psychology (which is crucial to their Brexit policy too) which is that these people have been a minority group within a minority party for most of their political lives. Suddenly they are on the brink of power. I think they're overwhelming motivation for everything is "please, let's not fuck it up now". That caution may indeed be the reason why they fuck it up now, but it's wrong to see their equivocation and triangulation as indicative of what they actually think.

But it's not just the 2017 manifesto. Labour have also pledged to go along with the tory promise of not raising tax on people earning up to £80,000 a year, which....... is as crippling as the pledge to keep the tory spending plans for the first three years of the labour govt. A promise to raise income tax on only the top five percent, starting from the current situation is completely incompatible with any form of vaguely left wing govt.

Also you're coming very close to a politer version of me describing the current labour party leadership as pensioner cranks watching the clock ticking down, whose entire motivation is for them personally to get into govt in the short term, while triangulating away literally every single principle that they're supposed to have. they literally don't care about what state the UK is in in five years time because they'll have retired by then,

[MsD]

I think TAB is giving too much weight to the 2017 manifesto as an indication of what a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government would want. It was clearly one that was drafted not to frighten the electorate and to be one that a divided party could all (broadly) support. I also think broadly people are failing to understand their psychology (which is crucial to their Brexit policy too) which is that these people have been a minority group within a minority party for most of their political lives. Suddenly they are on the brink of power. I think they're overwhelming motivation for everything is "please, let's not fuck it up now". That caution may indeed be the reason why they fuck it up now, but it's wrong to see their equivocation and triangulation as indicative of what they actually think.

How do you know "what they actually think"?

Asking as someone with a Master's in Politics, 33 years in the Party and some acquaintance with McDonnell and Abbott.

I'm mystified by people claiming to know what Corbyn secretly thinks or feels, but I keep seeing it everywhere.

[MsD]

FWIW (probably nothing on here) I take the Manifesto on face value.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

That's the thing. If you want to know what politicians actually think, pay careful attention to what they say and do about taxation and spending. most of the rest is basically just words. This is the defining feature of the first three years of new labour, and John McDonnell is supposed to be Pol Pot, but in reality he's signed up to not increasing taxation on people earning up to £80k.

[MsD]

Edited: not just for my benefit, I guess.

[Lurgee]

I think TAB is giving too much weight to the 2017 manifesto as an indication of what a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government would want. It was clearly one that was drafted not to frighten the electorate and to be one that a divided party could all (broadly) support. I also think broadly people are failing to understand their psychology (which is crucial to their Brexit policy too) which is that these people have been a minority group within a minority party for most of their political lives. Suddenly they are on the brink of power. I think they're overwhelming motivation for everything is "please, let's not fuck it up now". That caution may indeed be the reason why they fuck it up now, but it's wrong to see their equivocation and triangulation as indicative of what they actually think.

I remember things differently. As I recall it, the vibe when the manifesto was released was that it was INCREDIBLY left wing and daring (the former is certainly incorrect, the latter, in the context of British politics, might be a bit correct) and that it had clearly been cooked up in about five minutes by a bunch of over caffeinated Trots who had been locked in a room and told they couldn't come out until it was done. There was a sense that the manifesto was a left wing wish list because they knew they were going to lose, and lose badly, and that would be it, game over; so they might as well throw everything into it as it was going to be the only chance they got to write such a document.

But yeah, as others have pointed out, there was a lot of space for it to be more radical and actually a bit properly left wing. It shows how far to the right the Overton Window has drifted that nationalising trains while not taxing the rich is considered Trotskyite.

[Etienne]

It's a fair point MsD. I'm obviously not privy to their innermost thoughts. But from the positions they've taken in the past and what I've read about them, I think my conclusions are what I've said above.

[Diable Rouge]

Four defections rumoured this weekend - Cat McKinnell, Pat McFadden, Phil Wilson and Siobhán McDonagh.

[Duncan Gardner]

Some MPs we've never heard of are resigning

McKinnell?

Steady on, it isn't that exciting

I've met PMF a few times. Amiable enough, until you ask him about Celtic's mediocrity in Europe

[DCI Harry Batt]

Siobhán McDonagh is the shitty right-wing MP for Mitcham & Morden, sister of Margaret McDonagh the awful Labour General Secretary who made sure London didn't have a Labour mayor.

[johnr]

. they literally don't care about what state the UK is in in five years time because they'll have retired by then

With respect TAB, I've seen that sort of take on Twitter, and it really is one of the stupidest out there. 'Literally don't care...'. Jesus Christ.

As for your earlier 'But the problem is that Corbyn is clearly pretty happy to be heading out of the European union, and anyone who thought that Labour might eventually work up to calling for a second referendum as a way out of this nightmare of shit, is going to have deal with the terrible realization that that was never going to be on the cards and that the leadership has fucked them.'

I'm a betting man, and I'm willing to lay a tenner that Labour will (unfortunately, cos it means we won't be heading for a GE) end up pushing for a second referendum. You can take up the offer in the replies, then when whatever will pan out happens I'll be happy to DM and send you the money.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Siobhán McDonagh is the shitty right-wing MP for Mitcham & Morden, sister of Margaret McDonagh the awful Labour General Secretary who made sure London didn't have a Labour mayor.

I sat on a Mitcham school's board of governors with Siobhán in the 1980s. She's been a socialist all of her adult life and is a superb constituency MP. If people like her start leaving the Labour Party it's got a big problem. I can see her winning the seat standing as an Independent Labour candidiate let alone a Tigger.

[Duncan Gardner]

69% last time was impressive, true. But as I mentioned, only one current MP (Sylvia Hermon in NI) was elected as an independent. It remains very difficult.

BTW I enjoyed my trip to MItcham before Xmas (for Dulwich Hamlet's last game as tenants). Although 20 minutes queuing to get into a non-League game is a bit rum, even if some kind soul was handing out cooked Brussels sprouts while we waited

ps although vaguely aware of McDonagh I thought Siobhain and Margaret were the same person. What's TT's specific beef with her

[Duncan Gardner]

(sorry, rogue emoji. Don't tell m'learned friends)

[DCI Harry Batt]

If she's a socialist, I'm a Bolivian miner.

[Duncan Gardner]

Thanks TT- although I was hoping for something nearer er, Putney than Potosi

[Nocturnal Submission]

69% last time was impressive, true. But as I mentioned, only one current MP (Sylvia Hermon in NI) was elected as an independent. It remains very difficult.

BTW I enjoyed my trip to MItcham before Xmas (for Dulwich Hamlet's last game as tenants). Although 20 minutes queuing to get into a non-League game is a bit rum, even if some kind soul was handing out cooked Brussels sprouts while we waited

ps although vaguely aware of McDonagh I thought Siobhain and Margaret were the same person. What's TT's specific beef with her

Much as I miss the Sandy Lane ground and its infamous Bog End, Imperial Fields isn't a bad replacement, with a tram stop nearby and the River Wandle's Watermeads a pleasant pre- or post-match (or mid- if the game's a stinker) stroll. A twenty-minute wait to get in is a bit of a pisstake though.

Kris has got very exacting standards when it comes to left-wing politics and its representatives. I'm not sure that he's found one that he approves of yet but we all live in hope.

[DCI Harry Batt]

I'm genuinely surprised to hear her referred to as a socialist. It would never have occurred to me that someone might. I guess I've not been spending enough time over recent years with people socialistically defending the Iraq war or arms sales to Saudi or ID cards or tuition fees or anti-immigration law. But yeah, she probably gets a bit of rub off from her sister, for me, which isn't fair.