Corb Blimey!

[Felicity, I guess so]

On Patrick Thistle's point:

I did a Humanities degree and was able to carefully 'dose my efforts' (as Sean Kelly would say) while my biological sciences pals were in 9-to-5 and had marathon revision periods which took them off the social scene for weeks at exam time. But that space allowed me not only to develop independence of thought about my own essay work but also in wider political awareness and engagement and, especially, to browse in the library - I wasn't studying Latin American fiction, for example, but read loads of it.

Not to say that some very vocational, skills-based, spoonfed courses today couldn't be crammed in to two years (I'm sure even PT knows 1 is an exaggeration) but in principle I'd be against denying other students that space that I had to get a broad education.

One argument I never hear mentioned in the HE funding debate: we get comparisons with US fees etc but why don't any other European countries charge anything like the fees we do? How do they afford a largely free system?

[Tubby Isaacs]

They're not walking on out their biggest market in the next 2 years. And anyway there's no shortage of "tough" decisions being made in Europe. Preserving free fees in the context of other really bad shit, as in Scotland, is indefensible.

Laura Pidcock seems to have got some attention as a new MP, representing North West Durham. As she says, the North East has very serious economic and social problems. So how can abolishing tuition fees be a priority? It's not like its main problem is lots of young people meeting university entrance standards and not being able to go. She mentions "the so-called dementia tax" too- how many houses in North West Durham are even selling above the £100k threshold?

She's already been on Russia Today too. That incredibly depressing Does she really not understand why she, as a Corbyn supporter, might be well received on there?

[Tubby Isaacs]

Eh? Skinner was slagging off the right, not joining them in their "genuine concerns". Real fucking pity Del Piero kept her seat.

Was meaning Skinner as a Brexit clown, not a "genuine concerns" man. He's tweeting out stuff about midwives and nurses leaving the profession- "Trident and smart bombs" apparently, not the shitshow he voted for.

I wish Del Piero weren't on the frontbench, that's for sure.

[E10 Rifle]

FWIW, here's an article on party democracy, 'deselection' moral panics and representation with a bit of perspective and detail.

[johnr]

That's very good, and apposite.

As a side-issue, over the last few weeks on the Conservative Home site comments have often been the 'have you seen the Momentum thugs trying to control the Labour Party with their deselections/intimidation/maneuverings' sort of stuff, yet when they're talking about their election performance, it's all about 'getting back to the grassroots/having a say in MP selection'. I have pointed out the contradiction, and it turns out that the explanation for it is that we're Marxists - it's all about taking control by stealth - whereas they're reasonable people. Or something.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Is there any reason Corbyn needs to be on stage with Ken Loach and Tosh McDonald at Durham? Could have won 3-4 more seats in London with a modicum of trust with Jewish voters.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Is there any reason Corbyn needs to be on stage with Ken Loach and Tosh McDonald at Durham? Could have won 3-4 more seats in London with a modicum of trust with Jewish voters.

Anyone on the left would be proud to be on stage with Ken Loach, for his film making record and his commitment to trying to tell the stories of ordinary people. This year, coming out of retirement, he made (with huge cultural and political impact) I, Daniel Blake, set in the North East, hence the invite to him from the Durham NUM.

So Corbyn should check back through Loach's record and boycott the biggest single working class gathering in Britain due to (I'm guessing here...) Loach trying to direct Perdition..?

That would be absolutely fucking bonkers, in my opinion.

[johnr]

Is there any reason Corbyn needs to be on stage with Ken Loach and Tosh McDonald at Durham? Could have won 3-4 more seats in London with a modicum of trust with Jewish voters.

Tubby's right; Corbyn should have insisted that he wouldn't turn up to one of the highlights of the working-class calendar if he was asked to share the stage with Ken Loach, and/or insisted Loach shouldn't be invited. That could get those Jewish votes.

Tubby, I get that you're generally a Corbyn-sceptic - fair play to you for that, we all need a bit of it - but this attempt at making some connection there is fucking desperate (unless I've missed something about Loach being an anti-semite). It's all sorts of wrong; I've stared at it for about 5 minutes, and I still don't get it.

[ad hoc]

Judging from the more wild eyed pro-occupation crazies I tangentially encounter on FB, Loach is anti semitic because he is one of the (many many) artists who have urged Radiohead to cancel their concert in Tel Aviv

[Tubby Isaacs]

I am talking about Perdition, yes. It's not exactly obscure. Also he described hostility to Jews as "understandable", because of Israel, didn't he? He's waded in against Radiohead on BDS this week too. I appreciate there are different views on that, but it all adds up.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I'm on a phone so can't check easily, but didn't Loach do KEN SPOKE FACT?

Haven't you heard of Perdition, As Hoc?

[E10 Rifle]

I've heard various Jewish people's reservations about Corbyn come up before, but not anything about Loach or Tosh McDonald. How significant are they in terms of vote-losing risk among Jewish people? Genuine question.

[Tubby Isaacs]

Tubby's right; Corbyn should have insisted that he wouldn't turn up to one of the highlights of the working-class calendar if he was asked to share the stage with Ken Loach, and/or insisted Loach shouldn't be invited. That could get those Jewish votes.

Tubby, I get that you're generally a Corbyn-sceptic - fair play to you for that, we all need a bit of it - but this attempt at making some connection there is fucking desperate (unless I've missed something about Loach being an anti-semite). It's all sorts of wrong; I've stared at it for about 5 minutes, and I still don't get it.

See Dave Rich on Twitter for a summary.

[ad hoc]

I have heard of it Tubby. I confess I don't know as much about it as I should (I know roughly what the plot of the play is, and that it has been cited as being anti-semitic by many, but I haven't read it, nor spent any time reading up about the case/controversy. )

[ad hoc]

What do you mean by the KEN SPOKE FACT thing?

[ad hoc]

This was Loach's open letter to Thom Yorke https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7835291.html (I am not sure whether that's what you were referring to Tubbs, but if so, then this is it)

[Felicity, I guess so]

Tubby Isaacs wrote I appreciate there are different views on that, but it all adds up.

I think it all adds up in Loach's case: to a consistent position of opposition to the Israeli state, sticking his neck out (on Perdition) where others bottled it

[johnr]

See Dave Rich on Twitter for a summary.

Have just looked. He spouts almost complete bollocks and smears (one of which is addressed here by Loach). And I still fail to see how Corbyn no-platforming Loach would win those Jewish votes in London.

There is nothing Corbyn could do to get some Jewish votes back other than to support Israel's occupation. And he's never going to do that, rightly.

[E10 Rifle]

Corbyn couldn't have no-platformed Loach. He was not the organiser of the Durham Miners Gala, an event that is over a century old. Corbs was invited to speak, and spoke. His only other option would've been to refuse.

[Tubby Isaacs]

I didn't say "no platform" Loach. They're friends. I was suggesting some kind of tactical distance. But it was difficult at Durham, I appreciate that.

The seats I'm talking about are Finchley and Folders Green, Hendon, and Harrow East- underperformed. Plus Chipping Barnet- decent performance, near miss. Shitty Brexit Tories in at least 3 of those. Hard to prove of course.

[johnr]

If he started 'tactically distancing' himself from Loach, then Labour could lose a whole bunch of other votes. As far as I can see, Loach has done nothing wrong (apart from making some boring films, but that's another thread...), so why should Corbyn distance himself?

As I said, there are some (Jewish and non-Jewish) voters who tie in attacking the state of Israel with attacking Jews; they'll never come round to Corbyn, and I'm not sure what he could do to get the others. Are we going to go around the whole Chakrabarti Report thing again, how Corbyn 'hasn't done enough'?

[Tubby Isaacs]

You think it was wise to give Chakrabarti a peerage after that report? How might that look?

[Tubby Isaacs]

You just said Jewish voters won't vote Labour because Israel occupation.

You find that letter of Loach convincing? "Collaboration"? And the fuss was all orchestrated to distract from occupation?

[Felicity, I guess so]

it was difficult at Durham, I appreciate that.

You didn't appear to appreciate that when you made the sweeping comment that started this part of the thread

(Reminder:

Is there any reason Corbyn needs to be on stage with Ken Loach and Tosh McDonald at Durham?

[E10 Rifle]

You just said Jewish voters won't vote Labour because Israel occupation

No he didn't. He said some Jewish (and non-Jewish) voters won't. Surely you can see the difference?