"I don't know that..."

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

Rewatching Season 3 of Mad Men, I noticed that Betty starts a sentence with "I don't know that..." instead of "I don't know if..."

Would that have been used in the 60's though?

Any other linguistic anachronisms you've noticed in film, TV or novels?

[Patrick Thistle]

"I don't know that..."

My Dad always commented on Princess Leia's use of 'gotten' in the first part of Empire Strikes Back as "very American".

[Gangster Octopus]

"I don't know that..."

Actually I think that it's an older English usage that's been dropped over here.

[Toro Toro]

"I don't know that..."

"I don't know that X" is subtly different to *I don't know if X". I've been trying to explain this to a private client of my boss's who I'm doing some work for to keep my boss sweet.

Take the question of whether or not there is milk in the fridge.

Suppose I have not looked in the fridge and can't remember if I bought any; we can say then that I don't know *if* there is milk there, meaning that I don't know *whether or not* there is; I don't know that there is , and I don't know that there is not.

But suppose that I have looked in the fridge, and seen that it is empty. In that case, we can say I don't know *that* there is milk there, since it is not true that there is milk there, and I cannot know something that is not true. But we can't say I don't know *if* there is milk there, since I have seen that there is not.

So the two phrases aren't perfectly equivalent.

[EIM]

"I don't know that..."

There is though. Bought four pints earlier on.

[MsD]

"I don't know that..."

^ geezer.

[MsD]

"I don't know that..."

On the OP, away from BoLL's serious skills, I mentioned Downton's tendency to do this, and sure enough, someone has listed them.

http://www.prochronism.com/2014/02/downton-abbey-season-4.html?m=1

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

"I don't know that..."

Toro Toro wrote: "I don't know that X" is subtly different to *I don't know if X". I've been trying to explain this to a private client of my boss's who I'm doing some work for to keep my boss sweet.

Take the question of whether or not there is milk in the fridge.

Suppose I have not looked in the fridge and can't remember if I bought any; we can say then that I don't know *if* there is milk there, meaning that I don't know *whether or not* there is; I don't know that there is , and I don't know that there is not.

But suppose that I have looked in the fridge, and seen that it is empty. In that case, we can say I don't know *that* there is milk there, since it is not true that there is milk there, and I cannot know something that is not true. But we can't say I don't know *if* there is milk there, since I have seen that there is not.

So the two phrases aren't perfectly equivalent.

But if you say "I don't know that there is milk" you're affirming that there is indeed milk, but how can you affirm it if you yourself are saying you don't know? It's a contradiction.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

"I don't know that..."

MsD wrote: On the OP, away from BoLL's serious skills, I mentioned Downton's tendency to do this, and sure enough, someone has listed them.

http://www.prochronism.com/2014/02/downton-abbey-season-4.html?m=1

Ta. That link is fascinating. And I intended to do some work today...

[Toro Toro]

"I don't know that..."

Pat McGatt wrote:

But if you say "I don't know that there is milk" you're affirming that there is indeed milk, but how can you affirm it if you yourself are saying you don't know? It's a contradiction.

Eh, no. If you say that, the one thing you can't be doing is affirming that there is milk. You can say it, consistently with denying that there is milk. Or you can say it while reserving judgement.

[Borracho]

"I don't know that..."

Presumably this milk is soon to be lapped up by Schrodinger's cat.

[Toro Toro]

"I don't know that..."

Umm, no.

[beak]

"I don't know that..."

It's gone sour by now.

[Gangster Octopus]

"I don't know that..."

Green Calx wrote: Presumably this milk is soon to be lapped up by Schrodinger's cat.

I was going to do a similar joke, but realised that Toro was in the thread, and any humour or enjoyment would be sucked out by him...

[WOM]

"I don't know that..."

So at the same time, the joke was both hilarious and utterly bereft of humour.

[Borracho]

"I don't know that..."

Not one of my better ones, I'm happy to admit. Hey, it's a slow Monday.

[Vulgarian Visigoth]

"I don't know that..."

Green Calx wrote: Presumably this milk is soon to be lapped up by Schrodinger's cat.

Wel'll never know if that happened until we open the fridge.

[MsD]

"I don't know that..."

Cats are lactose intolerant and should not be shut in fridges.

One does not follow from the other.

[Gerontophile]

"I don't know that..."

WOM wrote: So at the same time, the joke was both hilarious and utterly bereft of humour.

Welcome to otf.

I see where Toro is on this. There is milk, there is a fridge. Or is there? Milk is a conception of human mind, but fridge is a human construct.

ergo: I have no fucking idea what is going on here, but, milk, like 'fridges, are available.

[Gerontophile]

"I don't know that..."

MsD wrote: Cats are lactose intolerant and should not be shut in fridges.

One does not follow from the other.

This is an excepionally good point. Not all cats are lactose intolerant. Most like milk, but it is not good for them, in the same way as dogs will eat chocolate, but ...

Selective breeding, innit. Cat's mother has milk, etc.

[EIM]

"I don't know that..."

gero was *exactly* what this thread needed for clarity purposes.