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    #51
    BBC Ukip

    Fussbudget wrote: It is absolutely stretching the meaning. It brings to mind Hugh Abbott in the Thick of It saying that the JFK assassination was a regional event because it happened somewhere.

    What would you call it?.
    An international election.

    It's kind of representative of something significant is it not?.
    Well yes, but that's not the point Jon or myself were questioning.
    Technically, it was an international election, but given that candidates campaign primarily under their own labels, rather than as PES or EPP, then UKIP can claim to have won a UK election, which acted as a subcomponent of the European one, so to say otherwise does indeed appear to be hairsplitting.

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      #52
      BBC Ukip

      Luke R wrote: If you think that it's really stretching the meaning of "National Election" that about 15 million people from the UK voted in the Euros for parties from the UK representing them in their own country, I think we're probably quibbling.
      But they're not representing them in their own country, they're representing them in Europe. And they may be standing as members of recognisable national parties in the election, but they sit as part of European groups in parliament (S&D for Labour, ECR for Tories etc.) which is how the balance of power is decided across Europe.

      I know British people generally don't get Europe as a concept, but describing this as "national" strikes me as completely absurd.

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        #53
        BBC Ukip

        I meant they're meant to represent their constituents interests from the area they represent from their own country, but (obviously) over there.

        To find that my use of the word "national" in the respect I've used it - absurd, is silly, come now.

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          #54
          BBC Ukip

          It's not absurd given decades of data that show that voting patterns in European elections are qualitatively different from those in general elections.

          Whatever they are calling the 20/20 competition this season and the County Championship are both "national cricket competitions" as a formal matter, but they are far from the same thing.

          Comment


            #55
            BBC Ukip

            Luke, in the same way that an MP represents their constituents at Westminster, and yet you wouldn't call a general election a "regional election" just because in each constituency local people have elected a local MP to represent them.

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              #56
              BBC Ukip

              This is great. Keep it up.

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                #57
                BBC Ukip

                I'm not sure we can keep it up. I think it's just a mild disagreement on language. I haven't been convinced my use of the word was wrong, I haven't convinced those who have disagreed with me on this thread otherwise, and that's that I guess.

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                  #58
                  BBC Ukip

                  Hang on - are you saying that some people might use some bits of language a bit differently from some other people sometimes?

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                    #59
                    BBC Ukip

                    I think you might have just killed OTF with that revelation.

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                      #60
                      BBC Ukip

                      It's not just a disagreement on language.

                      The claim is that UKIP deserve extra position on a platform, extra publicity from the BBC, that their position isn't already massively over-represented, because they "won" a "national election".

                      But they didn't win the election. Nobody won it (nobody claims the Conservatives won the last UK general election - it was a hung parliament). And nobody can win a European election in the UK alone. Having the largest number of seats from an election doesn't mean you've won. When you can form governments and make policy, then you've won.

                      And it wasn't a national election, in the normal sense of defining national elections.

                      So, given that the 2 key points of the claim aren't true, then the assumption that follows from it, that they are deserving of the extra publicity, really doesn't hold.

                      Comment


                        #61
                        BBC Ukip

                        Look, I might be coming across as argumentative for the sake of it in this thread, but what irks me is the completely UK-centric view of this election that the term "national" implies.

                        The point of the election is for people across Europe to elect a European parliament who will legislate for the whole of the EU. In that sense, I really don't see how it can be called a national election if words still have any meaning.

                        On the other hand, if like most of the UK media you want to treat it like it's just some kind of glorified UK opinion poll, knock yourself out but don't expect me to go along with it.

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                          #62
                          BBC Ukip

                          Luke R wrote:
                          Originally posted by Fussbudget
                          What would you call it?.
                          An international election.
                          If you think that it's really stretching the meaning of "National Election" that about 15 million people from the UK voted in the Euros for parties from the UK representing them in their own country, I think we're probably quibbling.

                          I don't think saying UKIP winning a national election is particularly wrong in that respect. I didn't say General Election or Council Election, which are and can be forms of national elections too.
                          Look, I don't want to labour the point, but I misunderstood what you were saying because I didn't get the terminology. I've never heard the Euro elections referred to as a national election. In fact, I've never heard any election referred to as a national election, so I assumed the comment was linked to the most recent election that UKIP won which was the by-election in some right wing hellhole where all the Mail readers are terrified of dirty foreigners. And I queried calling a By-election a national election, and then when people started saying they meant the European Elections I realised I had mistakenly thought I understood what someone meant when they used an ambiguous term that isn't commonly used for any elections.

                          Comment


                            #63
                            BBC Ukip

                            Oh me and Fussbudget just both started a post with the word 'Look'.

                            Which is ironic as they are both addressing 'Luke'.

                            Comment


                              #64
                              BBC Ukip

                              Fussbudget wrote: if like most of the UK media you want to treat it like it's just some kind of glorified UK opinion poll, knock yourself out but don't expect me to go along with it.
                              That's fair enough, I think I probably do see it that way a bit. Obviously plus the added power, I mean, it wasn't just an opinion poll, there was an end game where they won a certain amount of power like, more than Labour and Conservative or anyone else.

                              To both FB & LLR. Would you object if I said UKIP won the most elected seats in a significant election that was held in the United Kingdom where 15 million or so people voted. Other than Labour or Tory, they're the first party in over a hundred years to succeed in such a widespread test. An election that was held among all the voters of the United Kingdom.

                              From that I accept that they deserve a certain amount of publicity and a right to reply when they are the focus of criticism, of which there is plenty, much of it deserved, hence why they're (and he in particular - him being the only half-savvy one among them) are always on the telly.

                              Comment


                                #65
                                BBC Ukip

                                You could have saved all this bother by calling it a European election ;-)

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                                  #66
                                  BBC Ukip

                                  Maybe, I think that might have left it open for some to disagree too.

                                  I suspect some of the disagreement might be born out of some here not liking UKIP, which I think is by the by in what I was arguing, but there - I said it.

                                  Comment


                                    #67
                                    BBC Ukip

                                    And I still think that you need to consider the data demonstrating that European elections often throw up voting patterns that aren't informative or predictive for general elections. Europeans often use their votes in European elections to express their distaste for establishment parties and give "alternative" parties a chance.

                                    It may be that the UK is late to that particular realisation, but it is widely accepted in every "core" EU member state.

                                    Comment


                                      #68
                                      BBC Ukip

                                      .

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                                        #69
                                        BBC Ukip

                                        Luke R wrote: Maybe, I think that might have left it open for some to disagree too.

                                        I suspect some of the disagreement might be born out of some here not liking UKIP, which I think is by the by in what I was arguing, but there - I said it.
                                        I was assuming that everyone here understands how disgusting UKIP is.

                                        Comment


                                          #70
                                          BBC Ukip

                                          People vote UKIP in European elections because Europe is the one issue they know what UKIP stands for. It's a protest vote.

                                          What is interesting is that for the first time that protest might get translated into a national election*.

                                          *See what I did there?

                                          Comment


                                            #71
                                            BBC Ukip

                                            Luke R wrote:
                                            To both FB & LLR. Would you object if I said UKIP won the most elected seats in a significant election that was held in the United Kingdom where 15 million or so people voted. Other than Labour or Tory, they're the first party in over a hundred years to succeed in such a widespread test. An election that was held among all the voters of the United Kingdom.

                                            From that I accept that they deserve a certain amount of publicity and a right to reply when they are the focus of criticism, of which there is plenty, much of it deserved, hence why they're (and he in particular - him being the only half-savvy one among them) are always on the telly.
                                            I accept the first part - that they won the largest number of votes nationally in an election.

                                            The second point, though, implies that they are underrepresented in the media when, in fact, the complete opposite is true.

                                            A party that got just over 25% of the vote in an election with a 35% turnout; but that in the previous general election managed to win absolutely zero seats, maybe should expect perhaps 10% of the airtime when it comes to national politics. Instead, currently, they are often being treated not just as a major national party (which they aren't, yet), but as half of the entire political debate.

                                            UKIP deserve less, not more, airtime, if we're judging them on their political successes.

                                            Comment


                                              #72
                                              BBC Ukip

                                              I wasn't trying to imply UKIP are underrepresented there.

                                              UKIP probably get their fair amount of publicity. Particularly when it's taken into account they're allowed their right to reply when criticised. As happens quite a lot. This is the big problem for those who want to see less of them.

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