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    #51
    Leon Brittan

    Thank you.

    Geoffrey Dickens of course was the original rent a quote self publicist, always to be relied on to call for a return for the birch or capital punishment. I don't know what the dossier consisted of (press cuttings and letters probably) but I can't imagine it had much in the way of serious research.

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      #52
      Leon Brittan

      Nefertiti2 wrote: The dossier - despite the fact that their title contains the word "SECRETARY" I dont think Home Secretaries do their own filing, so if it disappeared it needn't necessarily be Brittan's responsibility. This is a point raised by Tom Pride who claims that Sir Brian Cubbon, Brittan’s private secretary at the time of the meeting, has close links to MI5 and MI6.
      I think that, if true, these actions do point to MI5 activity, but not in the way that you or Foot thought, Nef. Brian Cubbon and Leon Brittan were both incredibly capable characters - and Private Secretaries don't just 'lose' dossiers. More likely that Cubbon - who was in the frame in the '80s to head up MI5 - passed the information to the security services, who used it (as was practice in those days) to extract favours from people in positions of authority. I just don't buy the line from Brittan that he gave the file to a 'civil servant' who 'misplaced' it and that he has no more recollection than that. That excuse lacks credibility, which leads people outside of the process to attempt to piece together a more plausible course of actions.

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        #53
        Leon Brittan

        But isn't what you described that Brittan "gave the file to a 'civil servant' who 'misplaced' it".

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          #54
          Leon Brittan

          Nefertiti2 wrote: But isn't what you described that Brittan "gave the file to a 'civil servant' who 'misplaced' it".
          It intentionally dumbs down the act in order to make it sound like a filing problem in a provincial town clerk's typing pool. This sounds very much to me like the deliberate use of damaging information kept in a safe place in order to extract favours from politicians. I've met and worked with these people and it's what they do - or at least did.

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            #55
            Leon Brittan

            True but the word "Dossier" also suggests that it was something substantial and well researched. I'm not sure that was necessarily the case. The dossier story seems to me to being used as a way of keeping the story in the public eye as a proxy for the allegations against Brittan whilst he was still alive.

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              #56
              Leon Brittan

              No. You can't have it both ways. It was either an MI5 stitch up to discredit Brittan or it wasn't. If it was a plot to discredit him, then it was a spectacularly shit one. Why would Brittan admit to giving a file to Cubbon, and why would Cubbon corroborate that fact? These evnts happened and it is not conjecture or rumour. Don't you think that it makes more sense that MI5 kept or destroyed the information because there was absolutely no benefit to them publishing and therefore losing their control over a number of influential politicians, including Brittan himself?

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                #57
                Leon Brittan

                Nefertiti2 wrote: Thank you.

                Geoffrey Dickens of course was the original rent a quote self publicist, always to be relied on to call for a return for the birch or capital punishment. I don't know what the dossier consisted of (press cuttings and letters probably) but I can't imagine it had much in the way of serious research.
                And yet the accusers of Brittan and Ched Evans have nothing but base unsupported speculation to back up their claims?

                Come on nef, this is verging on INAMINATE.

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                  #58
                  Leon Brittan

                  still waiting for someone to explain G-man's cryptic reference to Serbian mafia.

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                    #59
                    Leon Brittan

                    Cryptic may be wise, you don't want them chewing yer ear.

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                      #60
                      Leon Brittan

                      Nefertiti2 wrote: True but the word "Dossier" also suggests that it was something substantial and well researched. I'm not sure that was necessarily the case. The dossier story seems to me to being used as a way of keeping the story in the public eye as a proxy for the allegations against Brittan whilst he was still alive.
                      +1

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                        #61
                        Leon Brittan

                        So what's left for those of us in the 'undecided' camp?

                        Should I form a damning opinion based on blogs and Twitter, or should I wait until the mainstream media report on this?

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                          #62
                          Leon Brittan

                          Evariste Euler Gauss wrote: still waiting for someone to explain G-man's cryptic reference to Serbian mafia.
                          Oh, sorry. It was a riff on conspiracy theories making the rounds.

                          If Brittan was about to reveal what he supposedly knew about paedophile rings, his death might not have been natural. The way Jill Dando was murdered by the "Serbian mafia" because she supposedly was in possession of the extent of the BBC sex abuse scandal.

                          Perhaps I was being a bit too cryptic.

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                            #63
                            Leon Brittan

                            IMHO Brittan is not guilty until some victims and/or witnesses or conclusive documents are presented. Their continued absence leans in Brittan's favour, given that victims and witnesses have come forward in other cases. We also know that, in the Cyril Smith case, there was a police file from very early on that was dismissed because of class biases against the victims: "The characters of some of these young men would be likely to render their evidence suspect." Nothing like that has appeared regarding Brittan; instead a lot seems to rely on the 'research' of the raving loon Geoffrey Dickens.

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                              #64
                              Leon Brittan

                              Thanks for the explanation, G-man! It really bugs me when I don't get apparent references.

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                                #65
                                Leon Brittan

                                If tasteless puns are allowable, I'd like to offer (Fuc)Kings of Leon.

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                                  #66
                                  Leon Brittan

                                  satchmo76 wrote: IMHO Brittan is not guilty until some victims and/or witnesses or conclusive documents are presented. Their continued absence leans in Brittan's favour, given that victims and witnesses have come forward in other cases. We also know that, in the Cyril Smith case, there was a police file from very early on that was dismissed because of class biases against the victims: "The characters of some of these young men would be likely to render their evidence suspect." Nothing like that has appeared regarding Brittan; instead a lot seems to rely on the 'research' of the raving loon Geoffrey Dickens.
                                  It's not just Dickens- there are very nasty racist elements pushing Brittan's name, along with a couple of other posh non-white politicians (or would be politicians).

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                                    #67
                                    Leon Brittan

                                    I would see no reason to doubt why brittan is guilty. The one thing that you're going to learn about these historical child abuse allegations as they are investigated, is that the scale and reach of them is far bigger than you could ever imagine. It would seem looking back that the primary motivation for a lot of people to climb the ladder of power was to have a lot of really dubious sex with the vulnerable and powerless.

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                                      #68
                                      Leon Brittan

                                      You were a fearsome debater once, weren't you?

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                                        #69
                                        Leon Brittan

                                        The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: I would see no reason to doubt why brittan is guilty. The one thing that you're going to learn about these historical child abuse allegations as they are investigated, is that the scale and reach of them is far bigger than you could ever imagine. It would seem looking back that the primary motivation for a lot of people to climb the ladder of power was to have a lot of really dubious sex with the vulnerable and powerless.
                                        "Primary motivation" doesn't make much sense. You can have sex with the vulnerable and powerless just by being a paedo of middle or lower class.

                                        I could see how a person, once having climbed the latter, might see sex as a perk of that rank, but weighed against that would be the constant risk of being exposed by people who, in Brittan's case, have a racist/antisemitic motive to destroy you.

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                                          #70
                                          Leon Brittan

                                          TAB, I think you've wandered into David Icke territory here; namely everyone in a position of power is a satanic paedophile. And possibly a reptilian.

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                                            #71
                                            Leon Brittan

                                            Fair point, but Thatcher and her cabinet definitely were.

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                                              #72
                                              Leon Brittan

                                              I've heard of Thatcher being a milk snatcher but not a snatch milker.

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                                                #73
                                                Leon Brittan

                                                no, I'm suggesting that the scale of institutional child abuse was so widespread, that it's going to be very difficult to be falsely accused of taking part. Anyone involved in any position of authority over say orphans, or children in care is going to have to be considered gravely suspicious.

                                                The scale of child prostitution in the late victorian era was staggering, yet it almost completely vanished in the inter war period. It didn't happen because people stopped having sex with children.

                                                TAB, I think you've wandered into David Icke territory here; namely everyone in a position of power is a satanic paedophile. And possibly a reptilian.

                                                that's not what I said, if you look back. What I said is that given the total lack of accountability or checks, being in a position of power over children was massively attractive to paedofiles. There was no more accountability or protections for vulnerable children in the UK system than there was in the Irish system. I can't see why it would be any less extensive.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Leon Brittan

                                                  The Awesome Berbaslug!!! wrote: that's not what I said, if you look back. What I said is that given the total lack of accountability or checks, being in a position of power over children was massively attractive to paedofiles. There was no more accountability or protections for vulnerable children in the UK system than there was in the Irish system. I can't see why it would be any less extensive.
                                                  Yes, but that doesn't only apply to politicians. Teachers, priests, scoutmasters and people who worked in children's homes also had access … it wasn't necessary to become home secretary.

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                                                    #75
                                                    Leon Brittan

                                                    If you're home secretary you're in charge of the whole system. If you're not a paedophile yourself, you know an awful lot of people who are, or you are protecting them.

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