In the sense that minority and oppressed groups might be more sensitive to other minority and oppressed groups? (Only a quick response and not intended to speak for Hot Pepsi).
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I'd agree. Inclusion of any minority group tends to help break down the monolithic white wall. I can't imagine what the downside of greater diversity would be.Comment
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It's basically just the "why can't more of the drone strike pilots be women?" meme. It's token representationism that changes nothing structurally.
The cop that stood with his hands in his pockets while George Floyd was murdered is Asian American. Good thing he was there, otherwise it could have ended up even worse.
The LA County Sheriffs shot and killed a Latino young man who was facing away from them in June, and they shot and killed an African American man for riding his bike against traffic on a residential street this month. Some of the officers involved in those shootings are Latino. There's also credible evidence that the Sheriffs have an internal gang of deputies that has been allowed to thrive within the department, and many suspect the Sheriff, who rose from the rank-and-file, was either part of that gang or is still in it, based on tattoos that he has. He also said this to County supervisors who called on him to resign:
The Sheriff is Alex Villanueva and he's Puerto Rican. Again, thank god he's not another white guy, right?“Somehow they’ve deluded themselves into believing they could create a political entity known as the Civilian Oversight Commission, and somehow I all of a sudden became subordinate to the Oversight Commission, and they could subpoena me at will and I’m supposed to sit there and be lectured by the Oversight Commission and somehow that public shaming venture somehow honors the state constitution and honors the role of the sheriff as an independent elected official, and honors the separation of powers between the legislative and executive branch. Of course it doesn’t – this is a political entity created by the board for the sole purpose of waging a proxy war against me...For those who are calling for my resignation, you’re going to be disappointed. You need to start looking at what you’re doing, how are you serving your community? If you think you’re going to throw rocks at me as sheriff or the sheriff’s department or the profession of law enforcement to somehow advance something, no, you’re not doing anything … You’re only serving yourself, you’re serving a narrow agenda (that) has nothing to do with keeping the community safe, getting the community together. …You’re driving people apart, you’re doing it for profit, for ideological motives that does not advance the cause of peace and safety in our society, and it’s just downright un-American. So if you find yourself in one of those groups — and as elected officials, you’re part of that group, you know who you are, you need to knock it off."Comment
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And I'm not saying that a more diverse police force is bad. I'm saying that it likely won't change how the police interact with the public at all. Non-white males are also capable of abusing power once they have power, and also officers who try to speak up and challenge cops who are doing the wrong thing are targeted by other cops for breaking the code, or they see that their complaints are ignored and they get disillusioned and either join them or quit.Comment
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Yeah. But as Inca says, non-white non-cis and non-male cops are more than capable of abusing power too, especially if the overall culture is so oppressive and abusive to anyone who steps out of line.Originally posted by Sporting View Post
Larry Wilmore said the problem isn't white versus black, but blue versus black. That's very discouraging, really.
I still think it would help to have a lot more diversity, especially in the leadership ranks, but it won't do much in the long run by itself without other changes.
Of course, it would be hard to study if increasing the diversity helps much, because any department that makes an effort to increase diversity is also probably going to have relatively progressive leadership or oversight and be in a relatively progressive place, so it might be hard to separate cause and effect.
I don't agree that all cops are bad. I think most - or at least, a lot - of them got into the job because they wanted a stable unionized job that felt more meaningful than their other options and they weren't good enough at science to be a nurse, paramedic or a doctor. But that's going to vary widely from department to department and in any event, they know that they cannot hold onto that stable unionized job if they speak out. So not many do. And, I imagine, over time, even the ones that got into it for the best reason become cynical and biased because all they see all day every day is people at their the worst.
So "defunding the police" would mean a lot fewer police and a lot more social workers, EMTs, etc, but it would make the job better for the people still employed as police. If they weren't expected to deal with human crises they are not trained to handle or judged by how many tickets or arrests they could make, their job would be a lot better and it would attract a better caliber of human being to the job.
I understand that "defund the police" really means "completely reimagine what policing means" and "shift many functions currently performed by police to people much more qualified to do those things." It also means "reimagine the public sector."
I don't sense that anyone really wants to have no law enforcement at all. After all, in a just society, who would arrest the killers of Breona Taylor, for example? Of course, in a just society, she would not have been shot. But I think that literally "no police" would just mean that we are ruled by different, even less accountable, gangs of White supremacists. I suppose a lot of people, especially Black people, can't see how it could get much worse than it is already, but it can get sooooo much worse.
And, regardless, we still need people to direct traffic at intersections when the lights are malfunctioning.
That thing about the Sheriff is troubling. That's a good example of why electing certain officials directly is actually a terrible idea, because then they aren't accountable to anyone except the electorate which, even if it's fully engaged and morally upstanding, can't do anything between elections But, as it happens, the electorate is rarely engaged in elections for things like sheriff and insofar as it is, often just wants to crack heads and be "tough on crime" which is usually just code for arrest more Black and/or poor people. Civil rights cannot be left up to the will of the majority. That's what makes them civil rights.
I don't think that's really a thing in most of Pennsylvania. The Sheriffs here, as far as I understand, usually have a very narrow role connected directly to the courts, though they want to change that. (https://www.pennlive.com/politics/20..._law_enfo.html) I imagine that could be a problem in some rural areas, but the State Police would likely resist letting them in on their turf, and the established urban police departments certainly would.Last edited by Hot Pepsi; 25-09-2020, 16:35.Comment
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ThisOriginally posted by Incandenza View Post
This
and again
This.
I had heard these stories about gang members in the LA - area Police department linked to various right-wing ideologies.Comment
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Lou Dobbs is nutsComment
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ShockerComment
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Surely this is bound to fail due to its retroactive nature. I don't presume to know all the laws concerning grand juries but if secrecy surrounding the procedures is one of them then it would seem difficult for any backdating to take place.Comment
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I don't understand what retroactivity has to do with this
The question before the court is whether the allegations of malfeasance by the Attorney General are sufficiently robust to overcome the principle of grand jury secrecy.Comment
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Nor do I really, which is why it's good to hear an expert speaking!Originally posted by ursus arctos View PostComment
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I confess, even after seeing multiple episodes of things like Law and Order, I still don't really know what the grand jury system does and whyComment
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It was designed to serve as a "civilian" check on prosecutors in the bringing of serious criminal indictments, but has generally become a rubber stamp and way for prosecutors to avoid direct personal responsibility for prosecutorial decisions.Comment
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Thanks. So in the case being discussed, the suggestion is that the AG only gave selective information to the grand jury so that they would rule against going to trial?Comment
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And/or mischarachterised such evidence, the prosecution's recommendations and the deliberations of the grand jury in his public statements.
As TG observed earlier in the thread, the misuse and manipulation of grand juries in this fashion by unscrupulous prosecutors is all too common in cases of this kind.Comment
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Indeed, There used to be a saying a grand Jury can indict a Ham Sandwich. However, police can burst into a house unannounced and shoot a naked black woman dead. Grand Jury say no case to answer.Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
This can only lead to three conclusions:
The proscecutor is hopelessly inept
The Grand Jury is made up Fox News presenters
The proscecutor buried the case
I remember a couple of years ago (I believe it may have been Fergusson) where a Grand Jury member broke anonymity and said the prosecutor was almost begging them not to indict.Comment
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Sol Wachtler, the senior New York judge who coined the "ham sandwich" aphorism ended up being indicted himself for extortion and blackmail and actually served time.
This is a rather accessible article on the grand jury process
https://abovethelaw.com/2016/02/crim...-ham-sandwich/Comment
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Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
The irony.
Thanks for the link, very informative.
What is the history of the Grand jury process remaining in the US when this was abolished in England 100 years ago?Comment
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Federal grand juries are expressly required by the terms of the Fifth Amendment, and as far as I recall there has never been a serious effort here to eliminate them (we've talked before about how amending the Constitution is very difficult).
There have been a number of efforts at reforming them so as to be more independent, which have generally foundered on the same political shoals as other movements for meaningful criminal justice reform.Comment
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Wachtler was a big deal in New York State Republican politics and frequently discussed as a possible candidate for governor. The fact that he had family money behind him helped considerably.
The Wiki summary of his "fall" covers the basics, but I remember the details as being rather more tawdry.
In 1988, Wachtler began an affair with Joy Silverman. At the time, Wachtler was a co-executor of the estate of Alvin Wolosoff, Silverman's stepfather and the uncle of Wachtler's wife. He was also trustee of four trusts stemming from Wolosoff's estate for the benefit of Silverman and her family.[19][20] The trusts (in aggregate) were reported to be worth US$24 million at the time.[19] According to then-United States Attorney Michael Chertoff, over time, Wachtler received fees of more than US$800,000 for his work as executor and trustee of the entire estate.[21] After Silverman ended the affair in September 1991, Wachtler began to harass her.[22]
Wachtler was arrested on 7 November 1992, on charges including extortion, racketeering, and blackmail.[23] Prosecutors alleged that he demanded a $20,000 blackmail payment in exchange for turning over compromising photographs and tapes of Silverman with her then boyfriend, attorney David Samson.[24] He eventually pleaded guilty to harassing Silverman and threatening to kidnap her daughter.[4] He resigned as a judge and from the bar, and Governor Mario Cuomo appointed Judith S. Kaye to replace him as chief judge of the N.Y.S. Court of Appeals. He served his sentence, first at the medium-security Federal Correctional Institution in Butner, North Carolina, and from December 1993 at the Federal Medical Center in Rochester, Minnesota after he was stabbed in the shoulder while dozing in his cell in November.[4]
Wachtler was sentenced to 15 months, but received time off for good behavior.[4] His sentence started 28 September 1993.[4] He was released after serving 13 months.[25]Comment
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That's hilarious. He even got shanked OZ style whilst in Genpop.
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Has anyone followed the fallout of the grand jury non charging of the police officers for murder. Seems like the lawyer did bury the case and attempt to put the blame on the grand jury.
The plot thickens.....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...timony-releaseComment
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They are taking their sweet time in releasing all of the Grand Jury materials, but that was always what they were going to show.Comment
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