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    China's role in the 2nd World War

    I kind of stumbled across this piece, looking at another Web site - it is really interesting and is something I have hardly ever seen discussed generally.

    I knew China really suffered , just before the official WW2 kick off and during; but the scale of it, the involvement of the Soviet Union, the role of the Chinese leaders and the relationships of the old Imperial orders/US etc was really suprising - to me.
    I may buy the guy's book to read more.

    (This is where someone is going to tell me the author is some kind of far right mouth foamer.)

    Anyway the link: The Forgotten Ally.

    #2
    China's role in the 2nd World War

    Check out The 400 Million. It's a documentary film made be reknowned documentarist Joris Ivens in 1939 with narration by big name American actors. It was funded by the American wartime propaganda unit to build support for the Chinese.

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      #3
      China's role in the 2nd World War

      Sorry to bump this old topic up as well but this war still influences Chinese politics and society to this day. As the Communist Party tries to claim legitimacy from driving off the Japanese.

      Not many people know in China that the brunt of the war was fought by the Chinese Nationalists known as the Kuomintang, who now exist only in Taiwan. Many of the nationalist fighters who stayed in China after the loss of the Chinese Civil War, were then subjected to political abuse. These guy were paraded around the streets with posters or cone hats saying "thought criminal" or the like, whilst being spat on berated by a crowd.

      It's all quite harrowing, for people like my maternal grandfather who fought 8 years against the Japanese then to get his legs broken by those he tried to protect. He was then used as a political tool by the mainland to try and promote cross strait relations in the 80s.

      It's also very sad that this conflict is altogether nearly forgotten in the west. I put my hand up once in class, when a teacher in highschool asked who had relatives that fought in WW2. He just asked "Was he Japanese?" and turns out he had no clue about the Chinese involvement and 20 million deaths at all.

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        #4
        China's role in the 2nd World War

        I'd like to say well done on a fine thread resurrection, Chairman, but given the tone and subject of your post... you know what I mean, though. It is surprising how little people think of that part of the conflict, especially given the name. We do call it a World War, after all.

        I missed this thread first time round and am going to have a look at the article in the OP when I get off to bed in a few minutes.

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          #5
          China's role in the 2nd World War

          It really is quite interesting as is many periods of Chinese history.

          I used to be quite ignorant about the past of East Asia, until I learnt about all the crazy stories.

          There's this reoccurring tragic hero/scholar thing that happens in China. As well as the periods between dynasties being insanely crazy and popular.

          For instance the story of Yuan Chonghuan, who was perhaps one of the few reasons the Ming Dynasty held off the Manchu invasions, until he was targeted by a eunuch faction plot, which led to him being sentenced to death by a thousand cuts in public . (Slicing off his flesh a cut at a time, while the victim is still alive)

          Remember that Game of Thrones episode where they burnt the boats? It happened in the Battle of Red Cliffs in 208ad, where the northern fleet navy was burnt by the Liu-Sun coalition forces.

          The craziest of the bunch is Gao Yang. He was emperor of a brief regime called the Northern Qi. Gao Yang was already eccentric, he liked to use make up, slept on streets, run around naked. He was jealous of one of his concubine's sexual partners. Gao did what every human being would do. Behead her, hid her head in his sleeves so he can bring it out when everyone is eating, played with the other body parts and I think her shinbone as a flute. He also forced soldiers to cannibalise their own commander (the poor bloke just messed up).

          Okay, you're all probably think I'm sadistic but I'm just amazed that some of these Emperors can stay in power for so long despite being gigantic loons. Shows the power of religion and superstition back then (Mandate of Heaven).

          But seriously, if you ever get bored. Read some history, especially Chinese. It's so bloody interesting. Beware of the amount of secondary sources though. As each dynasty had designated court historians, and depending on circumstances, the historian might have grudges on the regime or the previous regimes. (Sometimes history was re-written must like what the communists do now to make up legitimacy).

          World War 2 is one of the saddest times in China. Grandma talking about uncles I'll never meet being bayoneted in the street for missing curfews. Of course there were atrocities on both sides. There's this story of my paternal grandfather burying Japanese officers alive. Apparently he did it cause they cut the finger tips off his best mate. It was bad on both sides.

          The tragic part of it was the peasants who suffered. Right after WW2, the Chinese Civil War started. Then all the Chinese people even faced the threat of being nuked after the communist won (MacArthur was well...I don't know). Then they had to suffer the yoke of Communist rule...honestly, it's all suffering and it's depressing.

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            #6
            China's role in the 2nd World War

            Wasn't it more a re-commencement of the Civil War in earnest after the end of WW2?

            Anyhoo, Mitter can be found as a talking head on episode six of 'The Story of China', currently on the iPlayer for those who can.

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              #7
              China's role in the 2nd World War

              I don't know if the Books forum is well-frequented by all board members, but Anton Gramescu and I both found John Keays' book about Chinese history really good (mentioned in the 'current reading' thread), if anyone wants to pick up some reading. Really is fascinating stuff, as Chairman says above.

              Comment


                #8
                China's role in the 2nd World War

                san2sboro wrote: Wasn't it more a re-commencement of the Civil War in earnest after the end of WW2?
                Yeah, that's true. Various parts of the nation have been at war continuously for the last few decades before that.

                I'll have a look into VV's recommendations. Put it on my book list to read next summer holidays (it's huge).

                Chinese people seem to care more about heritage than most...it's kind of an escape from reality when in fact living in Imperial China would've been pretty bloody shite unless you were a noble or something. It's fascinating in a country, where even the migrant labourers will zone into the official documentary channel. I guess no different to rednecks in America watching the History Channel, except the Chinese channel is obsessed with pre-1800s history. Every Chinese person I've met can recite the dynasties from 2000 BC to present.

                I do warn that any people looking up WW2 history to not search for images of Unit 731, Rape of Nanking or Comfort Women (Sexual slavery). It's holocaust levels of gristliness and these acts shall be remembered so they may never be repeated again but I myself still cannot get the images out of my head, and I do not wish that upon anyone.

                Comment


                  #9
                  China's role in the 2nd World War

                  Not many people know in China that the brunt of the war was fought by the Chinese Nationalists known as the Kuomintang, who now exist only in Taiwan.

                  The ineptness of Chiang Kai-Shek’s military strategy, the corruption of the GMD and the GMD’s savage methods of recruitment led to thousands of needless deaths among GMD troops when fighting the Japanese and the buckling of their army when it came under the slightest pressure. Not wishing to weaken the war effort, the United States normally agreed to do what Chiang demanded in terms of materiel and strategy but this did not stop Joseph Stillwell, US Chief of Staff to Chiang and deputy commander of South East Asia Command noting that in comparison to the GMD’s weak, wasteful and ineffective resistance to the Japanese, Mao’s Communists were impressive.

                  The United States was also concerned that Chiang was more preoccupied with destroying the CCP than fighting the Japanese. Here Chiang had form, unleashing the "White Terror" in 1927 in alliance with Chinese underworld figures that resulted in the execution of around a quarter of a million Communists.

                  Stillwell also noted that the resources being supplied to the GMD were being wasted due to GMD corruption and hopeless military strategy. A 1943 note from Stillwell said:

                  "I judge Guomindang and Communist Party by what I saw: GMD- corruption, neglect, chaos, economy, taxes, words and deeds. Hoarding, black market, trading with the enemy.

                  Communist programme- to reduce taxes, rents, interest. Raise production and standard of living, participate in Government. Practice what they preach."

                  Stilwell’s short note highlighted the recipe of CCP success. Through their use of the mass line, CCP apparatchiks were listening to Chinese peasantry and urban poor, offering rudimentary education, promising land etc. This in itself was revolutionary- for the first time in China’s long history those at the bottom of the ladder were being listened to. Now of course, what the CCP promised and what they delivered were for large parts two different things, but in the short term, this meant the CCP army was made up of volunteers attracted by the promises. Allied with Maoist tactics, the CCP became a considerably more effective fighting force against the Japanese than the GMD.

                  The GMD’s tyrannical methods of raising an army and the brutal treatment the GMD army handed out to the peasantry- appropriation of produce and forced labour- directly led to the CCP’s ranks swelling. During the second civil war, many Chinese saw a straight choice between the GMD who seemed to represent and offer nothing other than Emperors, Warlords and Robber Barons of the recent and ancient past or the programme of the CCP which was about to unleash its own unique form of havoc, destruction and progress.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    China's role in the 2nd World War

                    Well put Geoff, the KMT was incredibly corrupt and disjointed. The issue though, lies within that the CCP only fought two major engagements against the Japanese during WW2, yet they hail themselves as the saviours of China.

                    Also people should know that the KMT when they moved to Taiwan was still corrupt and ruled with an iron fist until the 80s. The White Terror wasn't only kept within the mainland sadly. Martial law was the call of the time.

                    Be it hindsight though, I still think the KMT would've done much better during the 60's then the CCP. Unquantified millions of people died during The Great Leap years. Though the KMT itself, had somewhat of a cult relationship towards Chiang, it was not at to the extreme levels of Mao, where all dissenting thoughts were systematically re-invented to be of the enemy.

                    If the KMT ruled China, I would be sure, the development wouldn't be as rough and it showed that Chiang's son Ching Kuo, was open to reform and would've likely given liberties to the people gradually, like it has happened in Taiwan. It's very sad though that even the democracy in Taiwan these days, are heavily affected by mainland politics. It's even more peculiar that the KMT and CCP are very much friends in this arrangement. I am no supporter of the DPP but what has happened is only detrimental to the people once again.

                    Everything that Geoff wrote was true and it showed how the KMT was able to lose power so quickly. The people just weren't with them. Mao harnessed the peasants. Chiang had the middle class who made up a minuscule portion of the population.

                    There's that common idea in China, though softly spoken. If Mao had died young like Lenin, he would be much venerated but alas he lived to a ripe old age and caused sorrow.

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                      #11
                      China's role in the 2nd World War

                      I wouldn't pretend to know much about it, but the Story of China I watched earlier had it that the Taiping Rebellion was very much a bottom-up affair, focusing on the grievances of rural peasants at its inception.

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                        #12
                        China's role in the 2nd World War

                        That last sentence is particularly striking in its likely truthfulness, CZ. If all Mao had done was start the Communist movement and aid in liberating China from the Japanese yoke then expired quietly in, say, 1946, he'd be sainted.

                        Geoffrey as ever puts things very insightfully. Coincidentally, a lot of it concurs with what I discovered only a couple of weeks back from reading a history of the Burmese campaign in the Second World War – this aspect of the conflict was something I've been meaning to look into for ages, as my great-uncle fought with the Chindits there and my grandfather spent a deal of time out there after the end of the fighting, with the British army forces helping deal with the Japanese war crimes trials. China – especially Chiang Kai-Shek – featured heavily in the narrative, but before reading it I have to confess I knew very little about the Asian side to the war at all. I didn't realise just how heavily China was involved in the struggle for Burma, and Stilwell for example plays a very prominent role throughout the book yet he was someone I knew nothing about before. It's unquestionably a 'lost' side to the World War Two story, from the perspective of the West at least.

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                          #13
                          China's role in the 2nd World War

                          san2sboro wrote: I wouldn't pretend to know much about it, but the Story of China I watched earlier had it that the Taiping Rebellion was very much a bottom-up affair, focusing on the grievances of rural peasants at its inception.
                          It also had a very different religious context in regards to other rebellions within Chinese history. The leader of the Taiping Rebellion, Hong Xiuquan, said he was the brother of Jesus Christ. Of course most of the peasants were perhaps mostly angry at the corruption of the Manchu led Qing regime, but somehow the focal point became one with a man who saw himself as a prophet.

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                            #14
                            China's role in the 2nd World War

                            Various Aliases wrote:
                            Geoffrey as ever puts things very insightfully. Coincidentally, a lot of it concurs with what I discovered only a couple of weeks back from reading a history of the Burmese campaign in the Second World War – this aspect of the conflict was something I've been meaning to look into for ages, as my great-uncle fought with the Chindits there and my grandfather spent a deal of time out there after the end of the fighting, with the British army forces helping deal with the Japanese war crimes trials. China – especially Chiang Kai-Shek – featured heavily in the narrative, but before reading it I have to confess I knew very little about the Asian side to the war at all. I didn't realise just how heavily China was involved in the struggle for Burma, and Stilwell for example plays a very prominent role throughout the book yet he was someone I knew nothing about before. It's unquestionably a 'lost' side to the World War Two story, from the perspective of the West at least.
                            The conflict didn't even end in Burma by 1949. As a contingent of Nationalist troops stayed behind and continued fighting well into the 60s. They occupied parts of the Northern Burmese border with China. Most of them ended up going to Taiwan later on but the few that remained became involved in the drug trade.

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                              #15
                              China's role in the 2nd World War

                              Interesting from GdSC.

                              I read a Soviet diplomat's diary that suggested that the CCP were bloody useless as a fighting force. Still the strategy of letting the Nationalist Forces fight the Japanese while living in a cozy coexistence with the Japanese met with Soviet approval.

                              The Japanese with their over stretched resources were happy with this arrangement to of course. Defeat one lot first, before turning on the other mob. Nonsense of course, but a Japanese War aim.

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                                #16
                                China's role in the 2nd World War

                                NickSTFU wrote: Interesting from GdSC.

                                I read a Soviet diplomat's diary that suggested that the CCP were bloody useless as a fighting force. Still the strategy of letting the Nationalist Forces fight the Japanese while living in a cozy coexistence with the Japanese met with Soviet approval.

                                The Japanese with their over stretched resources were happy with this arrangement to of course. Defeat one lot first, before turning on the other mob. Nonsense of course, but a Japanese War aim.
                                Exactly, I guess, I am a bit emotional on the topic. My family fought on opposite sides but after going to China and Taiwan, I can only think what China would've been without a totalitarian regime. Of course this is comparing apples and oranges. Since Taiwan has 20 million people and it's an island versus China, the 3rd/4th largest country in the world with over a billion people.

                                Just growing up and getting told by parents that one side of my grandparents were traitors...then to find out the truth. It's a pretty big whack on the head.

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