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    War in Ukraine

    Is there already a dedicated thread already on the evil ****?

    #2
    Ah, I thought this was the thread announcing his death.

    Which gets me to wonder: what after Putin? When a strongman goes, there usually is a mediocrity-filled vacuum. Is Medved the ordained successor, or will a gang of would-be strongmen slug it out to see who can become the Corruptor-in-Chief?

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      #3
      I doubt the sod will die any time soon. I was wondering if there was a thread on him specifically because he seems to be morphing from just low-level murdering and globally malevolent tyrant to seriously dangerous warmonger, which is rather scary what with nukes and so on. I'm wondering how reliably rational he is, hoping he doesn't have a screw loose about restoring the injured glory of the USSR a bit like Hitler was driven to get revenge for Versailles.

      Edit: my concern today was prompted by an NYT piece about how he is militarising Russian society and promoting paranoia and normalisation of the idea of war in Russian political and public discourse.
      Last edited by Evariste Euler Gauss; 22-12-2021, 14:13.

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        #4
        Coincidentally I read this rather depressing twitter thread today

        https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1473362460673515527?t=QIEqlG4ZdLxKqjyhZDEMoQ&s=19

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          #5
          To put an optimistic spin on the situation, Putin is not going to invade the whole of Ukraine, just the relatively small Russian-speaking areas in the east which are already occupied by Russian separatists. He has made some reasonable demands in asking for NATO to stop its activities in the Baltic states. Surely a deal can be done in which Ukraine would drop its application to join NATO and apply to join the EU instead?
          Last edited by Chris1963; 22-12-2021, 16:20.

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            #6
            Hang on, the Baltic States are Members of NATO, and surely Ukraine has a right to decide what it wants to do rather than forever be in a shitty Russian "sphere of influence".

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              #7
              I don't really see Russia carving up Eastern Ukraine as an "optimistic spin"

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                #8
                Yeah, joining Nato was the first item on the agenda for the baltic states on independence, slightly ahead of joining the EU. I remember showing a clip of peter hitchens making the argument that Russia should be allowed have its protective sphere of influence, to my polish flatmate, and he started swearing angrily in polish. People who live near Russia really want to be protected from Russia.

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                  #9
                  Indeed. And how the hell is it “reasonable” requiring nato to cease exercises in the Baltic States? Did we start World War One and earn some kind of Versailles treaty demilitarised Rhineland deal?

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                    #10
                    If the Baltic States and Ukraine have the right to join NATO then Latin America and the Caribbean have the right to align with Russia?

                    I am sure the USA will be fine with that?

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                      #11
                      Why would they do that though?

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                        Why would they do that though?
                        Open your history book to the chapters 1960's 1970's and 1980's. Take a look at Jamaica, Cuba and Grenada and any random central American country.

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                          #13
                          Why the fuck would anyone willingly align with a basket case kleptocrat mess like Russia in 2021? It's not the Soviet Union in the 60s or 70s.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post
                            Why the fuck would anyone willingly align with a basket case kleptocrat mess like Russia in 2021? It's not the Soviet Union in the 60s or 70s.
                            The UK has............

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                              #15
                              For a bit of balance, doesn't Russia have some justification for fearing "the West"? The last two times Europe was united under one ruler the very first thing they did was invade, and pretty much the raison d'etre of NATO is to have as many nuclear warheads as possible pointing at Moscow.

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                                #16
                                Plus why are these Ex-Warsaw pact countries opening their borders to the US and allowing them to set up numerous bases with all kinds of weapons pointing directly at Moscow. That's quite an aggressive posture and more likely to get them invaded rather than saving them from an aggressive Russia. Finland, a country that has had a recent history of animus with Russia and the Soviet Union did not feel the need to join NATO to protect itself.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                                  The last two times Europe was united under one ruler .
                                  ?

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                                    For a bit of balance, doesn't Russia have some justification for fearing "the West"? The last two times Europe was united under one ruler the very first thing they did was invade, and pretty much the raison d'etre of NATO is to have as many nuclear warheads as possible pointing at Moscow.
                                    My point exactly. Everything Russia has done in the Ukraine has from a political, military and self-preservation perspective makes sense.

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                                      ?
                                      Hitler and Napoleon sir.

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                                        #20
                                        There was a moment there in the 1990s when Russia could have been salvaged, but alas, the US was too interested in shock therapy mass privatisation.

                                        ​​​​​​

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                          Plus why are these Ex-Warsaw pact countries opening their borders to the US and allowing them to set up numerous bases with all kinds of weapons pointing directly at Moscow. That's quite an aggressive posture and more likely to get them invaded rather than saving them from an aggressive Russia. Finland, a country that has had a recent history of animus with Russia and the Soviet Union did not feel the need to join NATO to protect itself.
                                          Post WW2 Finland was the Soviet Union's window to the West in terms of imports of consumer goods etc. In return it didn't have independent foreign policy, reran elections when the Soviets got upset with the results...

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                            The UK has............
                                            The U.K. is a failed state ruled by grifters and thieves. A perfect fit for Russia.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                                              Hitler and Napoleon sir.
                                              I presumed he meant them, but I don't really feel Europe was united under either of them. You might as well offer up Suleiman the Magnificent (who didn't try to invade Russia)

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                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                                Plus why are these Ex-Warsaw pact countries opening their borders to the US and allowing them to set up numerous bases with all kinds of weapons pointing directly at Moscow. That's quite an aggressive posture and more likely to get them invaded rather than saving them from an aggressive Russia. Finland, a country that has had a recent history of animus with Russia and the Soviet Union did not feel the need to join NATO to protect itself.
                                                Speaking from one of those countries, I think it's very obvious why former Warsaw Pact countries fear Russia. They have an actual memory of why they should. You can argue that they're naive to throw their lot in with NATO, but you can't reasonably argue that they have nothing to fear from Russia

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                                                  #25
                                                  Well yeah, its clearly a rational position for ex Soviet states and ex Warsaw Pact states to want protection from Russia. It's also clearly a rational position for Russia to be wary of a hostile alliance expanding closer and closer to its border. It's not obvious that there is an easy way to reconcile both positions. In the longer term you'd want to build up trust, economic interconnectedness etc (y'know try and emulate the way that France and Germany have moved to decrease their rational fear of each other) but that doesn't seem to be the direction of travel at the moment.

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