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    #76
    Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
    I think fundamentally it's wrong for any one country to make demands about the (legal) foreign policy choices of another.
    Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that something that countries do all the time?

    and then try and force the implementation of those demands through the threat of military action.
    As above, the Russians are surely far from alone in having form for this.

    I acknowledge the points about the Ukrainians might, quite reasonably, want NATO membership as a support against the threat of Russian aggression, however that doesn't of itself make Russia's position - of wanting guarantees of NATO non-interference in Ukraine - itself unreasonable.

    I seem to be in a minority, even on this site, who thinks that Putin does not actually want to launch a full-scale invasion of the Ukraine. My main fear is that the response from the west could end up nudging him into it regardless.

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      #77
      Originally posted by The Bean Counter View Post

      Pardon my ignorance, but isn't that something that countries do all the time?



      As above, the Russians are surely far from alone in having form for this.
      Whataboutery rarely changes the facts

      I acknowledge the points about the Ukrainians might, quite reasonably, want NATO membership as a support against the threat of Russian aggression, however that doesn't of itself make Russia's position - of wanting guarantees of NATO non-interference in Ukraine - itself unreasonable.
      Russia should have thought about that before it actually invaded Ukraine last time. There's a reason why Warsaw Pact countries couldn't join NATO fast enough after 1989. It's not unreasonable on the face of it and stripped of all context. But...

      I seem to be in a minority, even on this site, who thinks that Putin does not actually want to launch a full-scale invasion of the Ukraine. My main fear is that the response from the west could end up nudging him into it regardless.
      I think probably he doesn't really want to invade. But fuck this "nudging him into it". If he invades that's his choice. Not some impossible conundrum he couldn't get out of

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        #78
        Oh no! I stole Crimea from the Ukraine and gathered a substantial number of my troops on Ukrainian doorsteps, and now the perfidious West is making me invade the country even further! If only this could have been avoided somehow...

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          #79
          And he has already invaded Ukraine, and he continues to occupy part of Ukraine.

          (Or what Wouter said)

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            #80
            (also: bloody hell, that annexation happened eight years ago! Feels much more recent)

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              #81
              https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1487474282032680963

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                #82
                Ukrainians should hire Coveney.

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                  #83
                  Invasion on for Valentine's day, apparently.

                  Although I can't see it happening. Ukraine is not the Ukraine of 2014. They've armed themselves to the teeth. It would be a massive bloodbath. And your average Russian soldier is going to be significantly less fanatical about invading Ukraine than your average Ukrainian soldier is about defending Ukraine. Russia would win in the end by sheer numbers, but at what cost? And to achieve what? Bragging rights?

                  I also can't imagine that all levels of the Russian command would be happy about an invasion. Let alone China, who need the world economy to hum along so they can export shit.

                  So it seems to be a cock waving excercise.
                  Last edited by anton pulisov; 12-02-2022, 18:55.

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                    #84
                    My neice is reporting for Al Jazeera in south-easten Ukraine. I'm somewhat worried.

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                      #85
                      Where is all this left wing stuff about the current situation being the creation of the US and NATO [edit]coming from[/edit]? It's incomprehensible to me if you even briefly consider the history of Ukraine.
                      Last edited by Levin; 13-02-2022, 16:03.

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                        #86
                        Entryist nonsense.

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                          #87
                          The US and NATO are dreadful things. Russia should fuck off out of Ukraine.

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                            #88
                            Ah yes, as is traditional, Tonton leads the way in finding a middle ground.

                            It really is the best summary of the situation I've seen.

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                              #89
                              (The UK should be in there too, as another dreadful thing, obvs.)

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                                #90
                                Originally posted by Levin View Post
                                Ah yes, as is traditional, Tonton leads the way in finding a middle ground.

                                It really is the best summary of the situation I've seen.
                                Agreed. It really is.

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                                  #91
                                  I don't get it. Nato in its current form is just a club for helping eastern european countries that don't want to get turned into belarus. That's basically all it does. It's a defensive reactive thing. I mean you could dislike it, but you'd have to show your workings. Particularly to someone from eastern europe.

                                  The alternative is for the european Union to create an army and spend an absolute fortune on conventional and nuclear weapons
                                  Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 14-02-2022, 11:43.

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                                    #92
                                    If New Labour didn't have such a hardon for war, they would have easy wins asking why it isn't possible to afford a decent pay rise and funding for the NHS yet it is possible to play soldiers in Eastern Europe.

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                                      #93
                                      Because there's always money for this sort of thing. Think of it as a short term investment to protect the status quo where London is where the oligarchs live and do their money laundering.

                                      Think about it, how much money would you spend not to wind up in possession of chelsea FC?
                                      Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 14-02-2022, 12:17.

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                                        #94
                                        I'm not the greatest fan of NATO, but there's a difference between voluntarily wanting to join one entity vs being invaded by another entity.

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                                          #95
                                          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post
                                          I don't get it. Nato in its current form is just a club for helping eastern european countries that don't want to get turned into belarus. That's basically all it does. It's a defensive reactive thing. I mean you could dislike it, but you'd have to show your workings. Particularly to someone from eastern europe.

                                          The alternative is for the european Union to create an army and spend an absolute fortune on conventional and nuclear weapons
                                          Easier to just say NATO is bad. And the US and the UK, but not Canada for some reason.

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                                            #96
                                            Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                            I'm not the greatest fan of NATO, but there's a difference between voluntarily wanting to join one entity vs being invaded by another entity.
                                            Yeah. I think every member of nato would rather it didn't exist, but that would require a world where russia wasn't perpetually run by utter bastards.

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                                              #97
                                              Nearly all the former Soviet states have erased all reminders of the Soviet era, whereas Russia persists. Have a look at the Aeroflot logo, for example. Recent Russian football kits have have been heavy on red and gold. I believe there have been proposals to rename Volgograd back to Stalingrad again. The airport code for St. Petersburg is LED. And there are still statues of Lenin and Stalin dotted around cities in Russia. It's kind of like Germany having the odd swastika around the place, for old time's sake. And then re-invading countries who dare to try and join up with other countries. In the name of a shared history of Aryan brotherhood.

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                                                #98
                                                Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                                Nearly all the former Soviet states have erased all reminders of the Soviet era, whereas Russia persists. Have a look at the Aeroflot logo, for example. Recent Russian football kits have have been heavy on red and gold. I believe there have been proposals to rename Volgograd back to Stalingrad again. The airport code for St. Petersburg is LED. And there are still statues of Lenin and Stalin dotted around cities in Russia. It's kind of like Germany having the odd swastika around the place, for old time's sake. And then re-invading countries who dare to try and join up with other countries. In the name of a shared history of Aryan brotherhood.

                                                It might be more explicable if Russia had treated the Ukraine so wonderfully well over the years and is now feeling rather bruised by the latter's attraction to NATO.

                                                However, seeing 3.5m of your countrymen and women die in a forced famine and 70 years of oppression tends to rather erode trust and pan-Slavic affection.

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                                                  #99
                                                  Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post
                                                  Nearly all the former Soviet states have erased all reminders of the Soviet era
                                                  ​​​​​
                                                  ​​​​​
                                                  This is true in Europe (minus Belarus and half of Moldova) but not in Central Asia

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                                                    Perhaps unsurprisingly, between Irish-born people and Ukrainians with Irish citizenship, 145 people have already registered with the Kiev embassy, and more expected to follow.

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