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    #26
    Originally posted by Vicarious Thrillseeker View Post

    I still carry one - needed to show it to enter Egypt last week, and to return to Tanzania on Saturday.
    Do you have to use it every time you go into a bar or hotel, or shop? I think that is the issue here.

    Comment


      #27
      Originally posted by My Name Is Ian View Post
      Some of us have already been separated from loved ones, family, etc already for more than a year. Blanket banning international travel doesn't only impact upon "entitled dips having their week in the sun", and to be honest I think it displays a lack of thinking to assume that it does.
      Amen

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        #28
        Originally posted by johnr View Post

        Do you have to use it every time you go into a bar or hotel, or shop? I think that is the issue here.
        Yellow fever maybe isn't as contagious as Covid, dunno.

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          #29
          Originally posted by johnr View Post

          Do you have to use it every time you go into a bar or hotel, or shop? I think that is the issue here.
          It's a precondition for entering certain countries. I'd say the similarity would be in the certification of vaccination for international travel - I'm aware of a number of airlines looking at bringing this in to increase traveler confidnece. I wouldn't know how it would work as an internal control mechanism.

          Speaking personally here - I'm currently in a country that until recently denied COVID existed, and then lost their president to COVID, who had constantly argued against the pandemic. They are still to grant a licence to any company wishing to import the vaccine. If this goes the way I suspect, I could be stuck here with no prospect of international travel for a long time, and I have a number of very important reasons for trying to get back to the UK in the summner, not least to see family that currently need my support..

          Comment


            #30
            To give another example of a kind of vaccine passport, when I went to study in the US I needed to prove I'd been fully vaccinated. I even had to have MMR because I hadn't actually had it (I'd been vaccinated against measles and had rubella and mumps as a child, but I needed, specifically, MMR*)

            That's not an international travel thing. Just a "you can't join this group of people until you're vaccinated" thing

            (*This belt and braces vaccination thing didn't actually prevent me having a mild attack of measles a few years later, but that's another story)

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              #31
              Originally posted by My Name Is Ian View Post
              Some of us have already been separated from loved ones, family, etc already for more than a year. Blanket banning international travel doesn't only impact upon "entitled dips having their week in the sun", and to be honest I think it displays a lack of thinking to assume that it does.
              Fair point. Too much to hope for that kind of nuance in the way the papers present it though. (The headline was Easyjab and the emphasis was on summer holidays.)

              Comment


                #32
                Originally posted by Snake Plissken View Post
                With Florida though, DeSantis has been a COVID denier all along, so he has to ban things in order to prevent the reason for their existence to be questioned.
                He has been incredibly lucky that Florida's health system didn't break down and the dead have been predominantly in already disadvantaged groups. He also got tons of money under Trump.

                Comment


                  #33
                  I have no idea when I'll be offered the vaccine - there's not even a timetable for the second dose for my age group - so the prospect of being excluded from most of society this summer and beyond fills me with dread. There isn't even an approved vaccine for children so who knows what this discriminatory policy will mean for us long term as a family.

                  Surely the only people in favour of this are those who have been, or are soon to be, actually offered the thing.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    This raises some interesting points:

                    https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/04/01...-are-gendered/

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

                      Fair point. Too much to hope for that kind of nuance in the way the papers present it though. (The headline was Easyjab and the emphasis was on summer holidays.)
                      Yeah I agree, Enforced quarantine in each direction for any international travel should be enough to separate those who have really good reason to want to travel versus those who just want some time in the sun. (So people such as my mother, who tends to visit the UK for 3 months a year to see us, would be fine with that, but those popping to Spain when they could pop somewhere more local would be put off.)

                      Comment


                        #36
                        Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                        In an ideal world, I'd be fine with them. As implemented by this government though? Absolutely no chance that there won't be any discrimination or mission creep in their application, or corruption in the awarding of the contract (most likely all three)
                        Entirely sums up my feelings too.

                        Comment


                          #37
                          Originally posted by Jimski View Post

                          Yeah I agree, Enforced quarantine in each direction for any international travel should be enough to separate those who have really good reason to want to travel versus those who just want some time in the sun. (So people such as my mother, who tends to visit the UK for 3 months a year to see us, would be fine with that, but those popping to Spain when they could pop somewhere more local would be put off.)
                          Enforced quarantine means that rich people can visit their family and the less well off cannot. Enforced quarantine, at least as I understand it, means having to stay in a government mandated hotel for 2 weeks, at high cost. My octogenarian mother has been at home alone for well over a year now. Having been fully vaccinated, I feel I ought to be able to go and stay with her, once she has also had her second shot. If I have to spend 2 weeks in a hotel at the airport at a cost of at least 2000 quid, that's not going to happen.

                          I mean i get the arguments against a passport, but I don;t think everything is quite as simple as some seem to want to make it sound.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                            Enforced quarantine means that rich people can visit their family and the less well off cannot. Enforced quarantine, at least as I understand it, means having to stay in a government mandated hotel for 2 weeks, at high cost. My octogenarian mother has been at home alone for well over a year now. Having been fully vaccinated, I feel I ought to be able to go and stay with her, once she has also had her second shot. If I have to spend 2 weeks in a hotel at the airport at a cost of at least 2000 quid, that's not going to happen.

                            I mean i get the arguments against a passport, but I don;t think everything is quite as simple as some seem to want to make it sound.
                            In general it is richer people who fly internationally anyway. Around the world, in general, it is richer people (and countries) who get vaccinated first too. The way our world is set up it's difficult to come up with any policy that doesn't favour the rich. I agree this is a problem, but I'm not sure what is best done to get around it. I'd definitely rather minimise international travel while the pandemic is still raging though.

                            Comment


                              #39
                              Originally posted by Jimski View Post
                              Entirely sums up my feelings too.
                              Yep, although generally in favour, it's hard not to share Fussbudget's misgivings about how the government will undoubtedly exploit this.

                              Comment


                                #40
                                Originally posted by Jimski View Post

                                In general it is richer people who fly internationally anyway. Around the world, in general, it is richer people (and countries) who get vaccinated first too. The way our world is set up it's difficult to come up with any policy that doesn't favour the rich. I agree this is a problem, but I'm not sure what is best done to get around it. I'd definitely rather minimise international travel while the pandemic is still raging though.
                                I get all of that. And yet...

                                (Mind you I am not convinced by the "rich people who travel internationally" thing. For business and long haul holidays, sure. For economic migrants and link ups to their families, not so much. I;d posit that a very large proportion of cross border travel within the EU for example, is being undertaken by the less-than-wealthy.)

                                Comment


                                  #41
                                  Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post

                                  Yep, although generally in favour, it's hard not to share Fussbudget's misgivings about how the government will undoubtedly exploit this.
                                  Yes, I'll fourth this

                                  Comment


                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by gt3 View Post
                                    Is there a thread?

                                    Personally, I don't have a problem with them.

                                    I don't see them as an infringement of my civil liberties. Instead, I start from the opposite end - it's my civic duty not to harm, which is why I had the vaccine. If I go to a theatre, restaurant, pub or whatever, I would want the staff there to know I didn't pose a threat to their lives by being able to prove that I have had my jabs. To say that it's not the British way, is just nonsense. You're not being asked to prove your identity - and I say this as someone who was once stopped under The Prevention of Terrorism Act to do just that as I was on my way to watch a football match,. so "they" can already do that - you're being asked to prove you aren't a potential for harm to other members of society.

                                    It strikes me as an odd coalition of libertarian right wingers and left wing civil rights supporters. i would automatically place myself in the latter camp. But, I don't believe this is an attempt to introduce ID cards by stealth. And even if it is, so what? Pretty certain that GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and the CIA, FSB, or the Goanbu have any interest in me and my small life.

                                    Would welcome the thoughts of OTF.Am I being naive?
                                    Except according to the BBC it's impossible to get one -


                                    "Then upload an image of your passport or driving licence."

                                    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-56198552





                                    Comment


                                      #43
                                      Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                                      I get all of that. And yet...

                                      (Mind you I am not convinced by the "rich people who travel internationally" thing. For business and long haul holidays, sure. For economic migrants and link ups to their families, not so much. I;d posit that a very large proportion of cross border travel within the EU for example, is being undertaken by the less-than-wealthy.)
                                      I can't point to anything definitive right now, but I know in the past I've read studies about emissions saying that it is the world's rich who in the main benefit from cheap flights. (I know I've seen it refuted that raising the costs of flights would affect poorer people more - they just don't travel *nearly* as much.)

                                      Comment


                                        #44
                                        The pandemic has really brought home how the world works though. Pretty much every conceivable policy to deal with the pandemic can be criticised for affecting poor more than rich. If this doesn't illustrate to the general public how the world is set up in favour of a certain set of people, one wonders what will. (e.g. pretty much every amount of government money ends up flowing upwards to those who own goods or property.)

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          Re the OP, it's not just the libertarians and civil rights supporters moving against it, it's yer mainstream Labour now. (From the Guardian Politics blog)

                                          'Good morning. Last night, as my colleague Aubrey Allegretti reports, Labour hardened up its opposition to the government’s plans for Covid-status certificates. It went from calling them un-British (Sir Keir Starmer’s position last week) to saying the party was minded to vote against. And in interviews this morning Jonathan Ashworth, the shadow health secretary, has fleshed out the new position - using a script that sounded as if it were written by the Spectator editor, Fraser Nelson.


                                          In a blog last night Nelson, who is probably one of the columnists most influential with Tory MPs, argued that Boris Johnson’s plans were incoherent. He said: His ministers use ‘vaccine passport’ as a euphemism but even this sounded awful to him. He referred to his plans as ‘Covid status certification’. But a certificate doesn’t have someone’s photo on it. What he is planning is a digital identity card - but loaded with personal health data, so a bioidentity card.

                                          On the Today programme this morning Ashworth, echoing Nelson’s argument, also said that Johnson “couldn’t defend his position”. He said that Johnson was now proposing to let people into pubs on the basis of having been vaccinated when only last week he recorded a video saying it was not safe for two vaccinated people to meet indoors because the vaccines do not provide 100% protection. Then Ashworth went on: When you read the documentary he produced, what he’s essentially proposing is a digital ID card for biomedical details which you would have to present to get into shops or pubs or restaurants.

                                          Asked if Labour would definitely vote against such a plan, he said: Well, we’ll need to be convinced, but I cannot support a system where you have to present your vaccination ID card in order to get into H&M or Next.

                                          According to the document published last night (pdf), the government has ruled out letting “essential shops” require people to show Covid-status certificates. And it is not saying that non-essential shops, or pubs, would have to impose these checks; but it is proposing that they should be allowed to if they want.'

                                          Comment


                                            #46
                                            This may be what Jimski recalls

                                            https://www.theguardian.com/business...tudy-covid-19?

                                            Frequent-flying “‘super emitters” who represent just 1% of the world’s population caused half of aviation’s carbon emissions in 2018, according to a study.

                                            Airlines produced a billion tonnes of CO2 and benefited from a $100bn (?75bn) subsidy by not paying for the climate damage they caused, the researchers estimated. The analysis draws together data to give the clearest global picture of the impact of frequent fliers.

                                            Only 11% of the world’s population took a flight in 2018 and 4% flew abroad. US air passengers have by far the biggest carbon footprint among rich countries. Its aviation emissions are bigger than the next 10 countries combined, including the UK, Japan, Germany and Australia, the study reports.
                                            As to cross-border travel in the EU, my guess is that the answer is very dependent on the relative economic and demographic position of the country from which people are traveling. The poorer and younger the country of departure, the greater the percentage of travelers who will be economic migrants. The composition of the Romania-Germany pair will be very different from Germany-Spain or UK-France





                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Yes, its entirely possible that my view of cross border travel (both by road and air) is skewed by the fact that the vast majority of people coming and going from Romania are Romanians living in Spain/Italy or elsewhere, or people visiting them.

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                I've also read that economic migrants themselves tend statistically to be among the richer or more upwardly mobile members of the population within their original countries.

                                                I do take your original point though, ad hoc. I'm not trying to suggest this stuff is in any way simple.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  There are all kinds of local patterns that aren't replicated elsewhere

                                                  Pre-pandemic, there were still thousands/tens of thousands of Southern Italians who commuted to the business centres of the North on a weekly basis.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                                    This may be what Jimski recalls

                                                    https://www.theguardian.com/business...tudy-covid-19?



                                                    As to cross-border travel in the EU, my guess is that the answer is very dependent on the relative economic and demographic position of the country from which people are traveling. The poorer and younger the country of departure, the greater the percentage of travelers who will be economic migrants. The composition of the Romania-Germany pair will be very different from Germany-Spain or UK-France


                                                    Thanks, yeah, it was either that or something similar to that anyway.

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