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    Vaccination Passports

    Is there a thread?

    Personally, I don't have a problem with them.

    I don't see them as an infringement of my civil liberties. Instead, I start from the opposite end - it's my civic duty not to harm, which is why I had the vaccine. If I go to a theatre, restaurant, pub or whatever, I would want the staff there to know I didn't pose a threat to their lives by being able to prove that I have had my jabs. To say that it's not the British way, is just nonsense. You're not being asked to prove your identity - and I say this as someone who was once stopped under The Prevention of Terrorism Act to do just that as I was on my way to watch a football match,. so "they" can already do that - you're being asked to prove you aren't a potential for harm to other members of society.

    It strikes me as an odd coalition of libertarian right wingers and left wing civil rights supporters. i would automatically place myself in the latter camp. But, I don't believe this is an attempt to introduce ID cards by stealth. And even if it is, so what? Pretty certain that GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and the CIA, FSB, or the Goanbu don't have any interest in me and my small life.

    Would welcome the thoughts of OTF.Am I being naive?
    Last edited by gt3; 06-04-2021, 17:50.

    #2
    https://twitter.com/Sabrina_Huck/status/1378972446783643648

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      #3
      They are being made illegal in Florida, assuming the legislature rubber stamps the order by the Governor. It is contradictory that the right wants to allow organizations to refuse to recognize gay marriages and preferred pronouns but is happy to deny businesses the right to protect their health in a pandemic.

      My view is that this is a pandemic that's nowhere near under control and passports are a necessary evil in that context. Clearly they will be implemented in a discriminatory way but hopefully someone would film the double standard when it happens and report it.

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        #4
        I'm perfectly happy to carry an ID card, as it makes life much easier.

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          #5
          TonTon not sure I get her point... who are these "others" with whom I should show solidarity? And no, they are designed to let me in and keep out people who choose not to have a vaccination. That way I can have fun or whatever because I have recognised my civic duty not to do harm to others. Trying really hard not to break Godwin's law so early in the thread <smiley face>

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            #6
            I don't see how they'd work practically. It would be incredibly discriminatory to use them before every adult has at least been offered a vaccine and that's probably not going to happen in the UK much before they start offering booster jabs to the older population. How long does immunity last? How forgeable will they be (I had a friend who ran a very profitable yearly bus pass production scheme when we were teenagers)? What about people who can't have the injection because of allergies or compromised immune systems? Would I be allowed into places with unvaccinated children before injections are available for them? If no, that's discriminatory. If yes, then what's the point?

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              #7
              For some, there will be a reason why they can't have a vaccination. A vaccine passport will, by definition, exclude them from full participation in society.

              An ID card does make participating in society a lot easier for many people, Sporting. But not everybody. And I think that where we should start, generally, when it comes to issues around liberties/rights/access etc is 'how might this impact negatively on other people, rather than how it might make things easier for me'.

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                #8
                I've seen this discussed in a few places, with always quite a lot of people in favour. A common thing about those places though is that they're full of people over 50 who have already had at least one dose of the vaccine. I'd love to see what the 20-year-olds of this country who are unlikely to be fully vaccinated until at least September think about it.

                Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                I'm perfectly happy to carry an ID card, as it makes life much easier.
                Does it? I have a French ID card and I can't think when I've ever used it for anything. I never carried one with me when I lived in France, and when the one I had as a kid expired it took me about ten years to bother renewing it (and I only did that as a backup because I needed to send my passport to the Home Office.) I'm pretty sure there's nothing that it allows you to do that you couldn't do as easily with a passport or driving licence. Also, it doesn't have any medical data on it.

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
                  I don't see how they'd work practically. It would be incredibly discriminatory to use them before every adult has at least been offered a vaccine and that's probably not going to happen in the UK much before they start offering booster jabs to the older population. How long does immunity last?
                  Yes, there is also that. The different vaccines also have different levels of protection against the several variants that we know of now, never mind any new variant that might emerge. What happens if the South African variant becomes the dominant variant in the country? Are people who have had the Pfizer jab (which protects against it) allowed in, but the ones who have had AZ (which offers hardly any protection against it) not? I don't see how that's workable.

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                    #10
                    I don't know if people who are exempt would be prevented from coming in. Yeah, I'm in my mid-50's Fussbudget, so I see that argument. But does that mean society stays closed down until everyone in the country has been vaccinated?

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                      #11
                      I am broadly in favour. I think they're an effective way of protecting staff and customers, and an effective way of incentivising vaccination, and let people know that choosing not to get vaccinated is damaging for society - not just for the individual.

                      I'd probably initially implement them for international travel, where similar requirements already exist in many places with things like yellow fever certificates. Instinctively I'd eventually have them in basically every indoor public space until the disease is effectively eradicated (provided, of course, the vaccines are at least partially effective against any new variants: we have been told that a 50% effective vaccine would be sufficient to eventually eliminate the original variant, so even if AZ or Pfizer are less effective against B117, it's not necessarily a problem).

                      But I also think they can only be implemented (locally, I think it's different for international travel) once it has been possible for everyone to get vaccinated, so they are not too exclusionary. And they have to be of the form "San Bernardinhault has been vaccinated or is unable to get vaccinated for health reasons" without saying which of the two is true so they don't exclude those with immune problems. There must not be, though, a religious/conscientious objector clause like there often are for MMR vaccines in schools in the US.

                      As for forgeability - everything is forgeable. Passports, driving licenses, and all sorts of other things. That doesn't mean they shouldn't exist and don't serve a function. Frankly, a vaccine passport probably serves a more useful purpose than an actual passport.

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                        #12
                        I think I would broadly be in favour, but I can see it being very difficult to manage and probably won't happen - I'm of the opinion that by talking about the possibility, they hope to persuade the vaccine wary in the at risk older age groups to go and get the jab, thereby further boosting numbers of the vaccinated.

                        I was massively agaist ID cards when the Labour government tried to introduce them, but since then tech has made them redundant anyway, if you've got a mobile phone and access the Internet they can keep an eye on you, not that they're interested in the likes of me or you anyway.

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                          #13
                          I'm all for them as soon as they get me bloody vaccinated! Still waiting on mine.

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                            #14
                            I think they're unworkable and don't have any confidence in them being effective. It feels like a performative waste of time.

                            One of the papers is saying that with a jab there's "hope" that people.can go on foreign holidays. I'd ban all international travel this year tbh. And forget the entitled dips that "have to" have their week in the sun.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                              I think they're unworkable and don't have any confidence in them being effective. It feels like a performative waste of time.
                              I rather suspect that several Tory donors are currently setting up IT database services companies right now in the expectation of a couple of billion quid being shovelled their way.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                I'd ban all international travel this year tbh. And forget the entitled dips that "have to" have their week in the sun.

                                Yup

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                                  #17
                                  There's a lot you can't do in Florida without a driver's license, such as buying a drink if you look even remotely likely to be under 21, which seems far more discriminatory to me than the passport. And of course the Republicans want ID to be compulsory for voting, which is another double standard with an obvious racist motivation.

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                                    #18
                                    The vaccination card that I got yesterday is ridiculously easy to fake, orders of magnitude easier than any other form of ID I've had.

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                                      #19
                                      With Florida though, DeSantis has been a COVID denier all along, so he has to ban things in order to prevent the reason for their existence to be questioned.

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                                        #20
                                        I used to carry a yellow fever vaccination passport. I didn't feel like my civil liberties were being infringed

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                          I used to carry a yellow fever vaccination passport. I didn't feel like my civil liberties were being infringed
                                          I still carry one - needed to show it to enter Egypt last week, and to return to Tanzania on Saturday.

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                                            #22
                                            I've no problem with them either.

                                            Indeed, it's hard not to feel just a tinge of suspicion toward those who are so dead set against it.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Jah Womble View Post
                                              I've no problem with them either.

                                              Indeed, it's hard not to feel just a tinge of suspicion toward those who are so dead set against it.
                                              I suspect that the overlap between Covid deniers and people who don't believe in vaccination passports is quite large. They are faced with the consequences of their beliefs and don't like it one little bit.

                                              (I'm not saying that it is wrong to be suspicious of the reason for the passports, or that not wanting one means you are a Covid denier.)

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                                                #24
                                                In an ideal world, I'd be fine with them. As implemented by this government though? Absolutely no chance that there won't be any discrimination or mission creep in their application, or corruption in the awarding of the contract (most likely all three)

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                                                  #25
                                                  Some of us have already been separated from loved ones, family, etc already for more than a year. Blanket banning international travel doesn't only impact upon "entitled dips having their week in the sun", and to be honest I think it displays a lack of thinking to assume that it does.

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