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    Oh, and our cleaner came today.

    Comment


      As I live alone, I do all the housework which averages around 2 hours a day and entails the chores others have mentioned.
      I vacuum the top floor once a week (I rarely go up there, My daughters bedrooms are up there),
      I vacuum the first floor where mine and my Sons rooms are every other day.
      I vacuum the kitchen diner every day at least, It's where I work from all day and is where I spend 90% of my awake time, I mop it twice a week.
      The dishwasher and washing machine are used daily.
      I don't reuse cups, plates if it's being lying around for more than 15 minutes it goes into the dishwasher, anything else is disgusting.
      I change my sheets twice a week, the next morning if I have been busy....

      Like the reusing cutlery and dishes (or not rinsing dishes after washing them) , I have dated women who don't change their sheets often enough for my liking. Ok, I didn't really date them, I got standards you see. The only thing that comes close to dirty sheets is when you want to take a shower and they hand you a musty smelling towel and the shower has black mould stuff going on in the corners.

      I don't have an issue with people who employ cleaners, but I am somewhat surprised with families with a stay at home parent who still employ a cleaner, does not make sense to me to be honest. But then again, I would not date a lady who couldn't cook or clean to a good standard, as my mother would say, "useless with no home training".

      Comment


        Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
        I change my sheets twice a week, the next morning if I have been busy....
        I believe being "busy" is in breach of COVID rules in the UK unless they live in your house.

        Comment


          Anyway - cleaners. It is all about personal stresses and behaviors. Sure you can be home 24/7 but if cleaning causes you anxiety / extreme stress - hire a cleaner if you can. If it doesn't and you would rather do it than pay someone else to do it - go do that.

          It is how the market forces work. Adhoc loves this kind of thing.

          But anyway - if this bothers you, when it comes to being elderly with a de-generating mind, you might need someone to clean you after you go poop. So paying someone to clean your house is pretty low on the scale of things.

          Comment


            Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post

            I believe being "busy" is in breach of COVID rules in the UK unless they live in your house.
            So your a grass now yeah, you want to report the man dem for doing the lords work.

            Anyway - cleaners. It is all about personal stresses and behaviours. Sure you can be home 24/7 but if cleaning causes you anxiety / extreme stress - hire a cleaner if you can. If it doesn't and you would rather do it than pay someone else to do it - go do that.
            How can cleaning cause you anxiety/extreme stress, like is this really a thing, its just getting busy with a vacuum cleaner and some cleaning fluid and a cloth, it's not beekeeping naked or herding moody Lions.


            But anyway - if this bothers you, when it comes to being elderly with a de-generating mind, you might need someone to clean you after you go poop. So paying someone to clean your house is pretty low on the scale of things.
            I don't think there is anyone on OTF in that position as far as I am aware so do not see how this line of reasoning is relevant. Also, my point was around a stay at home parent, what else do you have to do besides looking after the kids and keeping the house clean?



            Comment


              Things are fine unless they cause you anxiety and stress. Mrs dglh is a fervent cleaner, but in a way that doesn't always help her well-being (the size of the house, the amount of mess the kids make). Much as anything - there are situations that make it make sense for you to hire someone to do it for you instead, rather than you - be it cleaning, mowing a lawn, painting - whatever. It is all a set of choices.

              The reason I added elderly care is that the stigma I see about getting a cleaner versus a painter or whatever is simply a case of pride. Certain things are OK, certain things are not. So I raise that point that, at some point in your life, you are going to have to get over being proud about things and just get on with life.

              Comment


                People getting a painter in are 100% wusses, if that's any help. Get on that stepladder you lazy sods

                Comment


                  Originally posted by caja-dglh View Post
                  Things are fine unless they cause you anxiety and stress. Mrs dglh is a fervent cleaner, but in a way that doesn't always help her well-being (the size of the house, the amount of mess the kids make). Much as anything - there are situations that make it make sense for you to hire someone to do it for you instead, rather than you - be it cleaning, mowing a lawn, painting - whatever. It is all a set of choices.
                  I'm still struggling to understand, I mean, i am loathed to get into your personal business but I'll ask (as you have personalised it).
                  Does your wife work or is she a stay at home mother?
                  If the house is too big to manage, why didn't you live somewhere smaller?
                  If cleaning causes such mental instability, should she not see a counsellor?

                  The reason I added elderly care is that the stigma I see about getting a cleaner versus a painter or whatever is simply a case of pride. Certain things are OK, certain things are not. So I raise that point that, at some point in your life, you are going to have to get over being proud about things and just get on with life.
                  With me, it has nothing to do with pride, for one, I feel uncomfortable with strangers in my house. Secondly, people touching my personal clothing, underwear etc, Thirdly tidying up and moving stuff around stresses me out as i end up spending ages looking for stuff a cleaner would sensibly file away or assume it's rubbish and bin it. I would end up tidying up before the cleaner came (to make sure I know where everything is) thereby making the cleaner redundant.

                  The stuff I would like the cleaner to do, hoover, Mop, dust, clean bathrooms work surfaces isn't exactly back-breaking stuff and i do it usually when I take regular breaks away from the computer screen during the day so it's not too hard.

                  Note, I also have kids and a large house (even by American Standards) which would take me an hour and a half to vacuum from top to bottom easily (and I move quick).

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Fussbudget View Post
                    People getting a painter in are 100% wusses, if that's any help. Get on that stepladder you lazy sods
                    Ha, that's a professional service that a layman cannot do to the same standard.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post

                      I'm still struggling to understand, I mean, i am loathed to get into your personal business but I'll ask (as you have personalised it).
                      Does your wife work or is she a stay at home mother?
                      If the house is too big to manage, why didn't you live somewhere smaller?
                      If cleaning causes such mental instability, should she not see a counsellor?
                      We live somewhere smaller than we used to, and will likely get a cleaner again once life returns to normal. Mrs dglh has very high standards - not that she gives cleaners shit, but she just wants everything to be clean always. It is maybe a little OCD, it is certainly a thing we deal with - a few years ago she was very hesitant to get a cleaner, and then that actually helped a lot once we did (it went from bathrooms to whole house over a year, as she felt more comfortable). I hope now we have moved and the pandemic is easing, we might get something again. Though the house is 3/4 the size.

                      Re: counselling - it is America. Such actions are carefully judged based on insurance. The whole house and cleaning thing is a very small issue in amongst everything.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                        my point was around a stay at home parent, what else do you have to do besides looking after the kids and keeping the house clean?
                        Read a book? Study Chinese?

                        Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                        How can cleaning cause you anxiety/extreme stress, like is this really a thing, its just getting busy with a vacuum cleaner and some cleaning fluid and a cloth, it's not beekeeping naked or herding moody Lions.
                        I think you underestimate how everyday routine tasks can cause mental stress.

                        Comment


                          What would I rather do than clean the house?

                          I mean, I'm not a stay at home parent at the moment (I have a full-time job now), but I have been in the past, and I would literally rather do anything than clean the house (I do clean the house, but that's not the question).

                          I'd rather:
                          - take the kids out to the park
                          - go to an exercise class
                          - do a sudoku puzzle
                          - go litter picking
                          - bake a cake
                          - do an arts and crafts activity with the kids
                          - talk to a friend on the phone
                          - do the company invoices
                          - volunteer for a charity
                          - go to a museum or art gallery
                          - watch a film
                          - teach my children to ride their bikes
                          - write a treasure hunt
                          - read a book
                          - have a bath
                          - paint / draw / colour in a picture
                          - write a poem
                          - play a Nintendo switch game
                          - cook a Thai curry from scratch (for some people this would be included in housework, but I actually enjoy cooking)
                          - jump on the trampoline

                          I mean, as far as I'm concerned, there are an infinite number of things that I would rather do instead of cleaning / housework. It still has to be done, but the idea that the only things that a stay at home parent could or should do are parenting and housework is incredibly limited.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                            , I would not date a lady who couldn't cook or clean to a good standard, as my mother would say, "useless with no home training".
                            Sorry for quoting you in a second consecutive post, but I really don't know where to begin with this.Are you saying that even though you fancy this "lady" - a bit of an old.fashioned way to describe women, I think, but never mind - that the first time she cooks you something and it turns out substandard she's immediately on probation? Or that you minutely inspect her cleaning? How about if she denigrated your cooking: would you accept this as a reason for dumpimg you?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
                              What would I rather do than clean the house?
                              I think the implication was that looking after kids at home is a full-time job which makes it impossible to carry out most activities which didn't involve them, but I found with our son that there were always periods when he was happy being alone doing whatever which gave me the chance to do other stuff.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Sporting View Post

                                Sorry for quoting you in a second consecutive post, but I really don't know where to begin with this.Are you saying that even though you fancy this "lady" - a bit of an old.fashioned way to describe women, I think, but never mind - that the first time she cooks you something and it turns out substandard she's immediately on probation? Or that you minutely inspect her cleaning? How about if she denigrated your cooking: would you accept this as a reason for dumpimg you?
                                Yep, this was another bizarre statement. Things I care about in a partner more than their cooking / cleaning ability:
                                - are they kind?
                                - are they clever / can I have an interesting conversation with them where I don't have to consciously modify my vocabulary to make them less uncomfortable?
                                - are they fun / can they make me laugh?
                                - will they be a good parent / role model for my kids?
                                - do they enjoy similar leisure activities?
                                - can they stand up to me / put their own point of view forward assertively but not aggressively in an argument?
                                - do I physically fancy them / do we have good chemistry?
                                - can I learn new things from them?
                                - are they mature enough to have some sort of career / earnings that may help the family (I don't need my partner to be the primary earner or a high earner, but I prefer them to have some sense of purpose which often goes hand in hand with a job. Me earning and them taking over all the household management is also an acceptable alternative. Them just sitting around on the couch all day is not, unless it's a period of depression perhaps that I could and would support them through)

                                As far as I'm concerned, it is an absolute boon that my husband also cooks a mean egg fried rice and is willing to scrub the toilets, but it is so far down my list of priorities, and he's never going to win any "good housekeeping" awards.

                                I'm on a roll with lists today.

                                Comment


                                  And if anyone was ranking me on my housekeeping abilities, well, I would be dismissed straight off the bat. Final proof that, sadly, there seems to be no universe where me and TG would be compatible.

                                  Comment


                                    Prompted by EIM's post on the mundane thread, other household tasks that my husband does which I didn't originally list include the night shift. This ranges from everything from looking after babies during the night (I did with our first daughter and up until I got post-partum psychosis with our son, but since then he's done it all), feeding, changing nappies, burping, soothing, etc, to checking out downstairs if I hear a noise in the night. I am generally pretty feminist and will try and push myself to do most things that are seen as a traditionally male zone (including fixing cars and washing machines), but if I think there's a burglar, I absolutely will hide under the covers and send my husband down. Fortunately, so far, all noises have been innocuous, gates banging or bins falling over or whatever.

                                    Husband also deals with any rats or mice, from setting traps to disposing of them, to sealing up any holes with wire wool and expanding foam. Deeply unpleasant jobs which I am very grateful for him dealing with.

                                    Comment


                                      I deal with spiders, which my partner absolutely shudders at. But she does all the DIY.

                                      Comment


                                        I deal with spiders, husband deals with bees or wasps (because I am possibly allergic to them and don't want to risk getting stung to test it. I was stung on the foot once by a wasp when I was five and my whole leg swelled up and went bright red, and then I got rashes for a month afterwards, gradually rising up my body to my face).

                                        Comment


                                          You should probably get an epipen.
                                          While excessively cleaning is not one of my criteria for choosing a partner, I applaud TG's recognition that it's important to him as it can cause a fair bit of stress and resentment as time goes by if one half of the relationship feels that they are shouldering all of the burden, or have to nag their partner to do what they feel is a reasonable amount of cleaning.

                                          Comment


                                            Fair point. I'd probably struggle to live with someone who was obsessed with cleaning and constantly nagging about it. I have a friend who's girlfriend constantly goes around picking up cups of tea that he's only half drunk and he's terrified of putting anything down without a coaster underneath it. The plus point of living with someone like that is that you get to live in a wonderfully clean environment, but I don't think I could handle the stress.

                                            Comment


                                              Ok, I see I have a lot to answer for, here goes:
                                              Sporting
                                              I think you underestimate how everyday routine tasks can cause mental stress.
                                              Is, cleaning the house really going to cause a mental breakdown, is this really what western society has turned us into?
                                              I hate working, but not as much as I hated being broke and unemployed, so I suck it in and find ways to cope. Like learning skills that are in demand so I can pick and chose my employer rather than take what is going.
                                              As with anything there are trade-offs and people need to stop acting like babies expecting life to be a bed of roses and throwing a strop when presented with (one of OTF’s swear words) hard work.
                                              Balderdasha
                                              I don’t think anyone really likes cleaning, but we find ways to make it tolerable.
                                              As for the long list of things you would rather do, I am sure you took them all into account and came to the realisation moving into your current property and becoming a mother meant that some things will need to go on the back burner.
                                              Actually, I should say this, you all know I am not one to throw around praise or blow smoke up someone’s backside but having read your posts, you are one of the most impressive people I have come across on OTF and IRL. How you have handled the pandemic, the change in family life and the kids in your stride. That’s very rare ability nowadays albeit common in my mothers and grandmothers generation. For the interests of balance, the men are much worse, generations of overgrown man-babies wasting time engaging in pointless activities like computer games, drinking excessively, taking narcotics and spending too much time on the internet.

                                              Sporting
                                              Sorry for quoting you in a second consecutive post, but I really don't know where to begin with this. Are you saying that even though you fancy this "lady" - a bit of an old.fashioned way to describe women, I think, but never mind - that the first time she cooks you something and it turns out substandard she's immediately on probation? Or that you minutely inspect her cleaning? How about if she denigrated your cooking: would you accept this as a reason for dumpimg you?
                                              Depends what you mean by “fancy”, if you are talking physically attractive and a pleasant personality, then no, I cannot date her. If I find her physically attractive and she’s “putting out” then I will lay up with her, but I have three daughters I cook, clean after, I don’t need another. Old fashioned is not necessarily a bad thing, I can cook and clean, why can’t she. I see this as a form of laziness and a personality deficiency.
                                              I woman has the right to dump me for whatever reasons she wants. It’s not my place to whinge and moan about it, it’s my position to show her I am her best choice and tick all her boxes. As for women cooking for me, I am always wary of that because sadly (as you and most men on here know) most are useless at cooking and you run a serious risk of food poisoning.

                                              Balderdasha
                                              This is interesting:
                                              Yep, this was another bizarre statement. Things I care about in a partner more than their cooking / cleaning ability:
                                              - are they kind?
                                              - are they clever / can I have an interesting conversation with them where I don't have to consciously modify my vocabulary to make them less uncomfortable?
                                              - are they fun / can they make me laugh?
                                              - will they be a good parent / role model for my kids?
                                              - do they enjoy similar leisure activities?
                                              - can they stand up to me / put their own point of view forward assertively but not aggressively in an argument?
                                              - do I physically fancy them / do we have good chemistry?
                                              - can I learn new things from them?
                                              - are they mature enough to have some sort of career / earnings that may help the family (I don't need my partner to be the primary earner or a high earner, but I prefer them to have some sense of purpose which often goes hand in hand with a job. Me earning and them taking over all the household management is also an acceptable alternative. Them just sitting around on the couch all day is not, unless it's a period of depression perhaps that I could and would support them through)

                                              As far as I'm concerned, it is an absolute boon that my husband also cooks a mean egg fried rice and is willing to scrub the toilets, but it is so far down my list of priorities, and he's never going to win any "good housekeeping" awards.

                                              I'm on a roll with lists today.
                                              If we are honest, being a good cook or a cleaner is not really expected in men, they are seen more as a nice bonus than mandatory as you seem to allude to.
                                              Men take note see the post of a sensible woman with a solid criteria there.
                                              A man who can provide and protect.
                                              Ability to gather resources
                                              A level of intellect that she feel she can trust him that other men wont be getting one over him (which would put her and her children at risk)
                                              In decent physical nick. Women don’t really want to be with a man who looks like he will struggle to last longer than 10 years, again leaving her and her children exposed.
                                              You have chosen well, he sounds like a man who takes Power Wealth and Influence seriously (note, I did not mention money) as well as a man who takes the duty of being a husband and a father extremely seriously. Well done to both of you.
                                              And if anyone was ranking me on my housekeeping abilities, well, I would be dismissed straight off the bat. Final proof that, sadly, there seems to be no universe where me and TG would be compatible.
                                              Ha, don’t be too hard on yourself, you could have been a contender, you would need to have some lessons on African cooking. No disrespect, I have seen your pictures and I remain sceptical you have the shoulders to pound Yam on a regular basis. That would be the real deal breaker. See here:
                                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaNiwHP58BM
                                              checking out downstairs if I hear a noise in the night. I am generally pretty feminist and will try and push myself to do most things that are seen as a traditionally male zone (including fixing cars and washing machines), but if I think there's a burglar, I absolutely will hide under the covers and send my husband down. Fortunately, so far, all noises have been innocuous, gates banging or bins falling over or whatever.

                                              Husband also deals with any rats or mice, from setting traps to disposing of them, to sealing up any holes with wire wool and expanding foam. Deeply unpleasant jobs which I am very grateful for him dealing with.
                                              Hahahaha, typical equality until danger raises it’s head, then you want you man to transform from productive simp to Captain caveman brimming with Toxic Masculinity.
                                              S.aureus
                                              You should probably get an epipen.
                                              While excessively cleaning is not one of my criteria for choosing a partner, I applaud TG's recognition that it's important to him as it can cause a fair bit of stress and resentment as time goes by if one half of the relationship feels that they are shouldering all of the burden, or have to nag their partner to do what they feel is a reasonable amount of cleaning.
                                              This is why you have to have criteria and if it is really important stick to it. If you do compromise to be with that person, you cannot complain about their deficiencies afterwards. You chose him/her and you can’t blame them being what they are.

                                              Phew.

                                              Comment


                                                Thanks for the comprehensive responses but there are still a couple of things.

                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                                Is, cleaning the house really going to cause a mental breakdown, is this really what western society has turned us into?
                                                I hate working, but not as much as I hated being broke and unemployed, so I suck it in and find ways to cope. Like learning skills that are in demand so I can pick and chose my employer rather than take what is going.
                                                As with anything there are trade-offs and people need to stop acting like babies expecting life to be a bed of roses and throwing a strop when presented with (one of OTF’s swear words) hard work.
                                                Thia seems a bit like old-time advice to people who are depressed. Stiff upper lip, suck it up. Not everyone is wired this way. Maybe Western society has gone this way because we are nowadays more aware of mental and psychological stress. And it's not always a result of aversion to hard work.

                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                                Ha, don’t be too hard on yourself, you could have been a contender, you would need to have some lessons on African cooking. No disrespect, I have seen your pictures and I remain sceptical you have the shoulders to pound Yam on a regular basis. That would be the real deal breaker. See here:
                                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaNiwHP58BM
                                                I've seen similar pounding (mostly of cassava) and water carrying in Sudan and the CAR. I'm sure all of those women would love mechanized help. No wonder so many of them are shagged oiut by age 40 while the men sit around drinking and eating.

                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                                If we are honest, being a good cook or a cleaner is not really expected in men, they are seen more as a nice bonus than mandatory
                                                Tell that to the legions of famous and good male cooks (who are not intrinsically better than their female counterparts, I hasten to say).

                                                Originally posted by Tactical Genius View Post
                                                I can cook and clean, why can’t she. I see this as a form of laziness and a personality deficiency.
                                                Completely disagree with this. It's a skill (especially with cooking) defeciency, nothing to do with character.

                                                Comment


                                                  On the mental illness front, cleaning the house may not have caused my post-partum psychosis, but it was absolutely incompatible with recovering from it. For the first year that I was out of the mother and baby unit, even though I was "just a stay at home mother" and in theory had nothing to do but parenting and housework, the only way we coped as a family was: a) we hired a very lovely Spanish woman to come in for two hours every morning to help me get both kids ready for school and walk with me to the school (she was amazing, she was a fully trained nursery teacher, but no-one would employ her because she couldn't speak much English. I have a reasonable level of Spanish fluency, and access to Google translate, so this didn't bother us at all. When she stopped working for us we gave her an excellent reference, her English had improved, and she managed to get a permanent job at one of the local nurseries), b) we paid for cleaners weekly, c) my mother-in-law came in and did all our laundry for free.

                                                  It's quite hard to explain the terrifyingly low level of functionality that I was trying to recover from. The unit said they released me at "70% of normal function", but I think I was operating at about 40%. I still had mental health professionals coming in daily to check on me. I was sleeping about 14-16 hours a day and often completely zoned out when I was awake.

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                                                    Thanks for the comprehensive responses but there are still a couple of things.

                                                    Thia seems a bit like old-time advice to people who are depressed. Stiff upper lip, suck it up. Not everyone is wired this way. Maybe Western society has gone this way because we are nowadays more aware of mental and psychological stress. And it's not always a result of aversion to hard work.
                                                    So it's officially a thing to caricature my points to debunk them, this is why I stopped contributing to that other thread. And I get accused of debating in bad faith?

                                                    Mental and psychological stress is part of life. Actually, life is more or less navigating one stressful situation to another, work, education, health, relationships.
                                                    It is the modern western society that lies to their children that life is going to be a stress-free bed of roses and nothing has to be worked for. This is further compounded by TV and social media that further compounds this nonsense. So people going through tough situations end up believing it is just them and their trials and tribulations are somewhat unique to them.
                                                    There is a reason alot of these mass-shooters end up going back to shoot up the schools they feel failed them.

                                                    I've seen similar pounding (mostly of cassava) and water carrying in Sudan and the CAR. I'm sure all of those women would love mechanized help. No wonder so many of them are shagged oiut by age 40 while the men sit around drinking and eating.
                                                    Are you saying the men do not do any work and sit around eating and drinking all day, whilst the women graft non-stop?

                                                    Looking at the average 40 year old woman in the UK, there is a lot of pot calling the kettle black here sir. No more elaboration needed.

                                                    Tell that to the legions of famous and good male cooks (who are not intrinsically better than their female counterparts, I hasten to say).
                                                    There is a difference between a man being a decent cook because he is well adjusted and was raised well and a man who is a good cook because it is his vocation. Most if not all the worlds most famous chef's did some kind of vocational qualification followed by a long apprentice under a master chef of note. Again, caricature of my point there.

                                                    Completely disagree with this. It's a skill (especially with cooking) deficiency, nothing to do with character.
                                                    Well, yeah in as much as brushing your teeth properly, showering properly or wiping your arse when you do a shit are all skills.
                                                    If you cannot do any of those as an adult, they would be considered character deficient unless you have a mental of physical impediment.

                                                    If you can't cook because you were too lazy to learn or considered it beneath you, good luck but expect numerous mental, physical and health issues down the road.. You are what you eat and if you decide to outsource your diet to Findus, Birds Eye, Pizza Hut, Dominoes, McDonalds and Coca Cola it won't end well.



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