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Are people still terrified of a "command economy"?

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    Are people still terrified of a "command economy"?

    The terrible spectre of the 1980s, and why socialism had to be defeated, was the prospect of the command economy, where the government would decide what everyone did, went, could eat, and got paid. That's what happened behind the Iron Curtain, I remember being told by my Dad whenever we played one of them at football, and we don't want that ever to happen here.

    Well with the combined effects of Covid and Brexit it strikes me that, at the moment, the government is effectively setting the wages of the vast majority of people in the country (either through pensions, benefits, public sector pay or the furlough schemes and corporate profit support versions). It is controlling where we can all travel to, especially abroad. It is pretty much in control of what food is being imported and exported. Or at least it's their fucking fault there's no longer free trade. And although we haven't quite got as far as shooting people trying to get in or out, it's not a million miles off.

    And yet the right-wing press all agree the Government is doing a marvellous job and most people - myself included, I must admit - seem quite happy with this "new normal", apart from a few grumbles, and are getting on with it. If a politician stood up now and said "we're taking everything over. Nationalising the lot. But don't worry, we'll make sure everyone gets a ration book" I reckon there'd be an 8 o'clock clap, not outraged rioting in the streets.

    Maybe I've just been overthinking it. I don't know.
    Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 18-02-2021, 16:42.

    #2
    https://twitter.com/AliceAvizandum/status/875665911952416768

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      #3
      Has a planned economy worked anywhere? I only know of them in countries where shortages / privation / black marketeering seem to be the result.


      [Spoiler: I think they're a terrible idea]

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        #4
        Originally posted by WOM View Post
        Has a planned economy worked anywhere? I only know of them in countries where shortages / privation / black marketeering seem to be the result.


        [Spoiler: I think they're a terrible idea]
        We've seen all of those in lockdown Britain already. Is it not "working", well that's the question.

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          #5
          Shortages/privation /black marketeering don't seem to be exclusive to command economies

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            #6
            Yeah, all those Paris breadlines....

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              #7
              https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1360305169255157764

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                #8
                As ursus points out there are bread lines at the moment all over Europe. But the capitalist system also creates situations where poor countries are pretty much forced to grow cash crops to service the west and their people go hungry as a result. African countries (many of them capitalist) have suffered in this way for decades

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                  #9
                  Right...but....those lines aren't because of shortages of bread. I mean, you're not actually making that point, are you?

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                    #10
                    Man from Canada says: Oh why don't the world's poorer countries just grow more wheat?

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                      #11
                      You're not being serious here, are you? I mean, I genuinely thought this was a good-faith debate about planned/command economies.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by WOM View Post
                        You're not being serious here, are you? I mean, I genuinely thought this was a good-faith debate about planned/command economies.
                        Well, yes I am. That was maybe a bit below the belt, but seriously, I think someone from a wealthy western capitalist economy expressing the belief that capitalism works for everyone and doesn't result in black markets and hardships is a...ok, let;s say it's a viewpoint that i believe doesn't take into account lots of things

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                          I think someone from a wealthy western capitalist economy expressing the belief that capitalism works for everyone and doesn't result in black markets and hardships is a...ok, let;s say it's a viewpoint that i believe doesn't take into account lots of things
                          Given that it won't involve a lot of scrolling, quote the bit where I said that.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by WOM View Post
                            Yeah, all those Paris breadlines....
                            What did this mean in response to my post if it wasn't what I thought it meant?

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by TonTon
                              WOM - if you were replying to ad hoc in your 18:36 then his response is a reasonable one. If not, easiest thing would be to say so.
                              I'd like him to show where I said "capitalism works for everyone and doesn't result in black markets and hardships". It's a simple request.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by ad hoc View Post

                                What did this mean in response to my post if it wasn't what I thought it meant?
                                You know very well that those are lines of students experiencing hardship due to covid, not due to shortages of bread due to planned economies or evil capitalism or whatever else you want to hang on me.

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                                  #17
                                  These conversations are always invigorating because you get to defend stuff you didn't say and don't believe, which is fun and productive.

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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by WOM View Post

                                    You know very well that those are lines of students experiencing hardship due to covid, not due to shortages of bread due to planned economies or evil capitalism or whatever else you want to hang on me.
                                    You said that before the picture went up. I understood you were suggesting that there were no bread/food lines in capitalist economies. (You didn't say that capitalism works for everyone, I take that part back, but you did - I understood- imply that capitalism did not lead to bread lines or black markets )

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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                      Has a planned economy worked anywhere? I only know of them in countries where shortages / privation / black marketeering seem to be the result.


                                      [Spoiler: I think they're a terrible idea]
                                      All industrial economies are partially planned; the question is who's doing the planning. An economy heavily manipulated by Amazon and Facebook is not unplanned.

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                                        #20
                                        A free market economy in which there is a degree of state intervention (mildly oxymoronic but common enough terminology to describe Western economies) is a very different animal from a command economy.

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                                          #21
                                          Yep, I don't think any socialist, democratic socialist or social democratic party has advocated a fully-planned economy at any point?

                                          The CAP (European Common Agricultural Policy) is in some ways awful and deserved the criticism it received, would much rather have seen it reformed than have Brexit, but it has led (or contributed, debatable) to overproduction, waste, shortages and environmental damage in a group of countries where there is no real excuse for any of that.

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by MsD View Post
                                            Yep, I don't think any socialist, democratic socialist or social democratic party has advocated a fully-planned economy at any point?

                                            The CAP (European Common Agricultural Policy) is in some ways awful and deserved the criticism it received, would much rather have seen it reformed than have Brexit, but it has led (or contributed, debatable) to overproduction, waste, shortages and environmental damage in a group of countries where there is no real excuse for any of that.

                                            Yup. I'd go as far to say that CAP overproduction (I'm sure that we all remember the "wine lakes" and "butter mountains") was the first big issue to generate anti-EEC sentiment in the UK. Didn't agricultural subsidies account for three-quarters of EEC spending at one point?

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by WOM View Post
                                              Has a planned economy worked anywhere? I only know of them in countries where shortages / privation / black marketeering seem to be the result.


                                              [Spoiler: I think they're a terrible idea]
                                              Britain 1939-1945. Probably the closest anyone has come to actually doing it.
                                              Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 18-02-2021, 21:55.

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                                                #24
                                                The back and forth upthread reminded me of this meme:

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                                                  #25
                                                  I, while growing up in a western democracy in the UK, seem to recall my mum, sister and me having to pretend we were religious in the early 90's in order to get food from the local church.
                                                  The same UK currently chock-a-f*ckin-block with food banks that have been springing up these past 10-15 years.

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