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30 years since Desert Storm

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    #26
    I remember it for interrupting the football and then shortly after for that Bill Hicks routine which was my “Sex Pistols” moment.

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      #27
      Originally posted by wingco View Post
      This was the real End of History war, the "new world order" in the offing and, being a touch more centre-right and gullible in those days than I like to think I am now, I bought into it; the sanitised "surgical strikes" in which military installations rather than civilians were taken out, disabling the dreadful Saddam Hussein's malign infrastructure piece by piece, leaving the road clear for his removal and the establishment of democracy in Iraq. It took weeks for the inefficacy of the bombing campaign to become clear and the high price paid by ordinary Iraqis.
      Originally posted by Reginald Christ
      It was the first war that I can recall being covered in real time as I was either too young to be aware of the various conflicts of the preceding decade or just disinterested. The End of History/War as Mainstream Entertainment analyses are pretty accurate. The first things that spring to mind when I think about it are the night vision footage of air raids over Baghdad with anti-aircraft fire illuminating the screen and of a segment on CNN (the first time I'd heard of that, too) where various American pilots were being interviewed about their combat experiences. I was still apolitical at that stage and to the extent that I thought seriously about the war it was to conclude that Saddam Hussein was a Bad Person and the Americans, naturally the good guys, were right in fighting him. There were lots of acronyms and jargon - Patriot and Scud missiles, AAA, smart bombs, M1As, M2Bs, MiG-29s - that you became familiar with through osmosis and I seem to remember an ITV or BBC report about a Scud missile that had been fired at Israel but malfunctioned and crashed without detonating on a suburban street.
      These both speak for me too; I was an 11-year-old kid so at the time it was a strange mixture of scary and thrilling and confusing (who did the Scuds belong to and whose were the Patriots again? – that sort of thing) to see this stuff going out on the nightly news.

      Over the preceding handful of years I'd become aware of geopolitics via the glasnost-and-perestroika/Reagan-and-Gorbachev-signing-treaties era of the thaw of Western/Soviet relations, which coupled with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Eastern Bloc then the collapse of the Soviet Union made it apparent that good and right had won out and all the old extremists had been swept away. I was too young to remember the Falklands War, which to me occupied a strange space as part-history, part-contemporary events, but I was aware that in the same fashion there had been a little local difficulty and we'd gone in and sorted out the bad guys in relatively clean and neat fashion – and this thing in Iraq was basically the same sort of exercise.

      OK, I'd not really got much grip on the situation in the Middle East. After all, the UAE belonged to the crap second half of the Orbit sticker album for Italia '90 that I let my little brother do the collecting for. I was aware that Iraq and Iran had fought a war between 1980-88 but had no stake in that because it was far away between alien cultures I knew nothing of, but in the manner of a young football fan arbitrarily picking sides in a World Cup match between two countries he knows nothing of I retrospectively decided I liked Iran better because this Saddam Hussein guy was clearly A Bad Sort – no matter that, it turned out, "we'd" largely been on his side in fact. I'd never heard of Kurds before, but if this nasty bloke was demonising and disfranchising a minority group in a way that we civilised types obviously never would, then manifestly whatever needed to be done should be done, hurrah.

      I don't really know how long it took for that innocent/naive attitude to be knocked out of me. At the time though I certainly believed that Coe-lin and General Stormin' Norman and co. were doing a pretty super job and it would all be over by Christmas, so to speak.

      In hindsight, curiously, perhaps my strongest association with the war, its footage, and the oddity of military commanders in general is this deathless description in the Adrian Mole diaries for the period:

      Saturday February 23rd
      Norman Schwarzkopf was on television tonight, pointing a stick at an incomprehensible map. Why he was dressed in army camouflage is a mystery to me:
      1. there are no trees in the desert
      2. there were no trees in the briefing room
      3. he is obviously too important to go anywhere near the enemy; he could go around dressed like Coco the Clown and still not be shot at

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        #28
        A friend was evacuated from Kuwait as part of all this. He told me how they returned to their home, years later, and it was basically stripped to the studs. His Kuwaiti neighbor invited them around for dinner on their return, having become good friends in the five or so years before his evacuation.

        When he and his wife went round for dinner, they found their friend had now become the owner of their looted kitchen.

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          #29
          At the time I thought it was a good idea. Saddam just shouldn’t have been allowed to invade another country without consequences. The Economist’s explanation seemed to make a lot of sense so I went with that. The kids I knew who opposed it didn’t seem to actually know much about the geopolitical issues and were the sort of young liberals who seemed to be more into being right than helping anyone so I reflexively didn’t want to listen to them.

          But I was still in high school. I thought adults knew what they were doing. I thought the world basically made sense. I was such an idiot. If I live another 30 years, maybe I’ll have a few things sorted out.

          I guess if we had a remotely democratic and accountable international order with a proper international court of justice that everyone accepted, it would make more sense. But we don’t, so no war can really be “legitimate,” can it?

          I don’t know what to make of Hitchens. I think he’s kind of overrated as a thinker, at least on certain subjects.

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            #30
            Originally posted by jwdd27 View Post
            Looking back now, the gap between the invasion in August 1990 and military action in January 1991 seems a long time, I feel like nowadays there would be a much shorter gap for diplomatic efforts and UN resolutions to be exhausted.
            Well, back then, the 'West' (NATO) was trained, equipped and prepared for a war with the old Warsaw Pact in Germany. Not the Middle East.

            Logistically it was a challenge. During the 'Cold War' the UK armed forces would just nip across the Channel in commandeered ferries. At the time the UK had no strategic heavy lift capability, in fact no NATO nation did, apart from the US.

            Also, there were no large scale Main Operating Bases in the region.

            All this changed, hence the shorter gap before the killing starts.


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              #31
              I'd like to think we'd be more aware of the shenanigans around 'Little Nayirah' than at the time, but my optimism could be less grounded than is tenable.

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                #32
                Like many others, I was watching the football highlights. The abiding memory for me was the footage of the Tomahawk missile flying down the street about 10ft above the ground. Considering that the previous conflict we were involved in saw military hardware from the 40's and 50's being used, this felt like a whole new era of weapons technology.

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                  #33
                  My main memory is our English teacher stopping the lesson ten minutes early the next day so we could "watch the war". When I said "oh no, it's boring" one of my classmates (Dad was army, Grandad was army, he ended up in the army (a Lt. Col!!! (I just Googled him))) said that I was a traitor and "I bet your Mum's proud of you," which led to something of a scuffle, which involved his head being banged repeatedly on the table and him crying (out of anger, not pain, you understand).

                  Sometimes I miss school.

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                    #34
                    Originally posted by NickSTFU View Post
                    I know it as Op Granby.

                    I was full kitted out in NBC gear, with my respirator handy.

                    I had a bout of mainly diarrhoea and a bit of vomiting, it was going around, which made things a bit awkward in a NCB suit.
                    So Spike Milligan was telling the truth in his war memoirs. War in the desert is mostly about sliding around like a snail on a trail of liquid poo.

                    Did you manage to avoid the subsequent raft of health issues associated with fighting in that war? The 75 year release of papers related to that is going to be quite interesting, not that any of us are going to see it

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                      #35
                      The funny thing is that I was considering joining the army back in the summer of 1990. I had no idea with what to do with my life and a school mate had joined and was talking up the thing. In those days it was a bit of a jolly once you did your obligatory stint in NI (or so it was being sold to me). Once Iraq invaded Kuwait I binned that Idea as fighting in a real war didn't really do it for me.
                      I hate any temperature above 25C and I really hate sand.
                      The invasion took place on my sisters 20th Birthday was the abiding memory as well as these fancy new weapons and surgical strikes including the luckiest man in Iraq who crossed the bridge moments before it was blown up.

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                        #36
                        Originally posted by Fearful Symmetry View Post
                        Like many others, I was watching the football highlights. The abiding memory for me was the footage of the Tomahawk missile flying down the street about 10ft above the ground. Considering that the previous conflict we were involved in saw military hardware from the 40's and 50's being used, this felt like a whole new era of weapons technology.
                        The bombing of the port stanley airstrip was carried out with a bombsight taken out of a lancaster bomber, because the Vulcan was only really meant to carry nuclear weapons, and you don't have to aim those too carefully. But if it makes you feel better, the cruise missiles were likely either fired from an Iowa Class battleship, (1943) or dropped from a b-52 (designed 1951, built 1965). The Iowa class battleships are now museums, but the B-52's are going to get their first engine upgrade since they were built, and will likely be flying for another 30 years. Oh and they still were mostly wandering around with the M1911 browning pistol (no prizes for guessing when that was designed) and they still use the Browning M2 machine gun which was designed during the first world war.

                        The B-52 raises an interesting Ship of Theseus question. Is any part of these planes original? The last of them was finished in 1965
                        Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 19-01-2021, 13:50.

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                          #37
                          Norman Schwarzkopf is not as fondly remembered as his sister, Elizabeth.

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                            #38
                            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                            The bombing of the port stanley airstrip was carried out with a bombsight taken out of a lancaster bomber, because the Vulcan was only really meant to carry nuclear weapons, and you don't have to aim those too carefully. But if it makes you feel better, the cruise missiles were likely either fired from an Iowa Class battleship, (1943) or dropped from a b-52 (designed 1951, built 1965). The Iowa class battleships are now museums, but the B-52's are going to get their first engine upgrade since they were built, and will likely be flying for another 30 years. Oh and they still were mostly wandering around with the M1911 browning pistol (no prizes for guessing when that was designed) and they still use the Browning M2 machine gun which was designed during the first world war.

                            The B-52 raises an interesting Ship of Theseus question. Is any part of these planes original? The last of them was finished in 1965
                            The best story I heard about the Vulcan deployment in the Falklands was that they'd had their mid air refuelling equipment removed in readiness for retirement, and a mad search took place for a particular valve, and one was found in use as an ashtray in the pilots mess at Waddington.

                            The tank transporters used by the BAOR in the Gulf were worked round the clock double shifted on 600 mile round trips to get battle ready Challengers to the front line. They were Scammell Commanders built in 1983, and are still in use with the Jordanian Army today.

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                              #39
                              The football interruption is mentioned in Fever Pitch. I'm sure everyone's memory here is impeccable, but over the years the audience for some obscure Rumbelows Cup highlights seems to have grown markedly.

                              Also on memory: I find it really hard to believe that I followed that war without the internet. CNN coverage has morphed in my mind to something I watched on a monitor at work, which was impossible. And I couldn't even Have My Say.

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                                #40
                                It was the league cup quarter final between Spurs and Chelsea, and there wasn't anywhere near the football on TV that there is now. I also remember where I was when I heard about Princess Diana's death, OJ Simpson not guilty verdict and 9/11, amongst others.

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                                  #41
                                  Originally posted by elguapo4 View Post
                                  It was the league cup quarter final between Spurs and Chelsea, and there wasn't anywhere near the football on TV that there is now. I also remember where I was when I heard about Princess Diana's death, OJ Simpson not guilty verdict and 9/11, amongst others.
                                  Princess Diana's death is the same for most people though - they were in bed when they woke up and heard the news.

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                                    #42
                                    Originally posted by Paul S View Post

                                    Princess Diana's death is the same for most people though - they were in bed when they woke up and heard the news.
                                    I distinctly remember waking up and for about half an hour assuming that they were talking about Princess Anne, as they just kept saying "the Princess", and even the beeb had stopped calling her that about three years earlier.

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                                      #43
                                      I was pissed of because the Archers Omnibus wasn't on...

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                                        #44
                                        I lived in Glasgow at the time and what I remember most from that war was watching the funeral of the six British soldiers who were killed in a US friendly fire on the news. Somehow nobody in the student accomodation I stayed in seemed to take it too seriously. There was more laughter than solemn silence in the room.

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                                          #45
                                          What student halls were they Belhaven? The Sixties Swedish prison design I stayed in Kelvinside for a year still gives me the shivers. The fuckin showers man.

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                                            #46
                                            I lived in Hillhead Street right next to the library in my first year in Glasgow. A bit rundown, but spacious and nice enough.

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                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Fearful Symmetry View Post
                                              Like many others, I was watching the football highlights. The abiding memory for me was the footage of the Tomahawk missile flying down the street about 10ft above the ground. Considering that the previous conflict we were involved in saw military hardware from the 40's and 50's being used, this felt like a whole new era of weapons technology.
                                              I don't think I was watching the football but was that Tomahawk the one that got to a crossroads then turned sharp left. I was certain if there had been a traffic light on red it would have come to a halt and waited for them to change.

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                                                #48
                                                Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                                The B-52 raises an interesting Ship of Theseus question. Is any part of these planes original? The last of them was finished in 1965
                                                I think "Trigger's Broom" has amost totally replaced Ship of Theseus now, but good for you, keeping it highbrow.

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                                                  #49
                                                  Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

                                                  So Spike Milligan was telling the truth in his war memoirs. War in the desert is mostly about sliding around like a snail on a trail of liquid poo.

                                                  Did you manage to avoid the subsequent raft of health issues associated with fighting in that war? The 75 year release of papers related to that is going to be quite interesting, not that any of us are going to see it
                                                  Milligan was right. Funnily enough, I had "Hitler, My Part in His Downfall" in my pack.

                                                  I didn't do any fighting. And I have had no health problems associated with the war. I don't know anyone who has.

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                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by jwdd27 View Post

                                                    I think "Trigger's Broom" has amost totally replaced Ship of Theseus now, but good for you, keeping it highbrow.
                                                    Who knew he nicked it from Del Boy in the first place?


                                                    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HisD_pqlRHQ

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