W(h)ither Unionism and Loyalism?

[Viktor Boskovic]

Much like BLT mentions upthread, my early experiences of English/Welsh difference came with football, and particularly the Chester/Wrexham matches. I have always disliked the toxic nature of the match and this is no doubt down to anti-Welsh and anti-English feeling although I do feel that there is also a fair amount of anti-Chester and anti-Wrexham feeling as both sets of fans are much more alike than they would ever like to admit (there are loads of Welsh Chester fans, as I am sure everyone knows) but I do think this match attracts the type of fan who is very similar to the stereotypical English nationalist - I remember one match at the Racecourse where the Welsh national anthem (I think) was sung by someone - I didn't hear any of it because of the booing. The anti-Welsh element when playing Swansea, Cardiff and Newport is there but is nowhere near as prevalent. I do think by it's very nature, living in a border area does tend to heighten animosity.

What this match has probably done is to give me a life long dislike of nationalism and whenever I have discussed the nature of the UK with Scottish and Welsh friends I have always looked at it from the viewpoint that the cultural imperialism was very much driven by the Elite or Establishment or whatever you want to call them, and these people are very much the same people in all nations of the UK, often with their roots from the Normans whose family still own the majority of the land. I always tried to highlight this with examples from my own family history (experiences of Irish/Welsh immigrants to England) but have also tried to look at it as a class thing too - the working class of England were also very much exploited and oppressed by the ruling class of the UK, and I believe the ruling class here were just as happy to do this as they were with the working class in Wales and Scotland.

Hopefully Wales will eventually escape the sinking ship we live on and it's interesting to see how the movement has moved away from how it was often seen in the 70s - more a rural Welsh speaking thing. When I was studying Welsh nationalism at college in the 80s the course leader (who was Welsh and was something to do with Plaid I think) emphasised that for independence to succeed it had to become attractive to non-Welsh speakers in the big cities which is something I think is now being done. How this would look in somewhere like Saltney where the border runs down the middle of the street would be interesting - it may be that some of the border would have to be adjusted.

I would much rather live in a world with less borders, as others have said, and very much would rather see myself as European if pushed to declare what I am - I have never wanted to describe myself as English as English nationalism is so repellent and loaded with the knowledge of just how many people in the world we have oppressed.

[Duncan Gardner]

Nefertiti2 while I realise the advantage to Johnson Netanyahu etc of encouraging violence, there are limits. As I mentioned, when the IRA broke into Westminster they didn't just ransack the car park

Patrick Thistle without wishing to downplay what happened to your grandads, isn't there a lot of 'the past is another country' involved? And you needn't even go back 2 generations. In 1971 I was forced to write right-handed at primary school, until my Da (also a clutie) threatened to fight the headmaster

[Nefertiti2]

I think we're just going to discover where those limits are, Duncan Gardner... I'm just saying that I think it's wrong to suggest that Johnson and co would be averse to increasing political tensions even at the risk of violence if they saw politcal advantage. Indeed they already have as their attitude to the border has shown. And Gove is an opponent of the Good Friday Agreement

[Duncan Gardner]

Viktor Boskovic In NI the match day rivalry isn't that different. Although the actual border is 50 miles away, most nearby towns and villages are strongly Nationalist and also GAA is the main sport. The real sectarian battleground tends to be at either end of Duncairn Gardens (although to be fair in recent years most of the fighting has been on field)

for newer readers: my home and namesake main drag forms the route between Cliftoville and Crusaders grounds

Nefertiti2 I can only hope your fears aren't realised...

[Patrick Thistle]

Duncan Gardner That was in response to a question about whether there had ever been visceral English-Welsh racism. A similar question came up regarding Wales having a common language on another thread. I think history is worth knowing because it explains so much, from the reason there are very few north-south transport connections to why most people in Wales that read newspapers read right wing newspapers printed in England.

I'm not a big fan of people assuming England's approach to Wales is benign and protective when Wales has been systemically and deliberately under-funded in this century let alone the past. The current government is greenlighting plans to reduce Welsh representation in the UK Parliament and keeps attacking the Welsh Parliament including anti-devolution sentiment in its criteria for Conservative candidates in the Senedd.

I'd be interested to hear what has actually materially changed since the start of the 20th century that means we can just move on and forget that nastiness happened.

(And if you want more recent anti-Welsh comments that would have ended careers if other ethnicities had been targeted, here's a list: https://nation.cymru/opinion/10-of-t...ou-gobsmacked/ That article does get into some older history right at the end)

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Much like BLT mentions upthread, my early experiences of English/Welsh difference came with football, and particularly the Chester/Wrexham matches. I have always disliked the toxic nature of the match and this is no doubt down to anti-Welsh and anti-English feeling although I do feel that there is also a fair amount of anti-Chester and anti-Wrexham feeling as both sets of fans are much more alike than they would ever like to admit (there are loads of Welsh Chester fans, as I am sure everyone knows) but I do think this match attracts the type of fan who is very similar to the stereotypical English nationalist - I remember one match at the Racecourse where the Welsh national anthem (I think) was sung by someone - I didn't hear any of it because of the booing. The anti-Welsh element when playing Swansea, Cardiff and Newport is there but is nowhere near as prevalent. I do think by it's very nature, living in a border area does tend to heighten animosity.

I have wondered if the novelty of playing Welsh opposition is what leads to the more tedious chants for some teams (especially from those far away from the border). I assume for the vast majority of those fans don't harbour particularly strong anti-Welsh feelings generally and consider it well within the remit of banter. It's not really something that particularly bothers me these days (beyond it being very boring) but it does leave an impression when you're a child without a particularly fixed sense of identity.

btw I think I remember the incident you mention - and it wasn't the Welsh national anthem that was being sung (though Chester fans clearly thought it was). It was a song about Wrexham Lager sung to the tune of Cwm Rhondda and with a hymn tune tempo. I can only recall the national anthem being sung by fans (during a game, outside of official occasions) on one occasion - 85 minutes into an FA Cup game at Brentford the weekend after Gary Speed died.

I do think post-devolution and (possibly more significantly) post 2016 there has been a significant shift in who identifies primarily as Welsh and there seems to be a sense of a more expansive sense of positive identity with Wales particularly in those areas where far fewer people speak Welsh.

[sw2borshch]

I'm not a big fan of people assuming England's approach to Wales is benign and protective when Wales has been systemically and deliberately under-funded in this century let alone the past.

You could substitute 'much of England' for 'Wales' there and it would be equally true.

[Toby Gymshorts]

I do think by it's very nature, living in a border area does tend to heighten animosity.

I'm not sure if this animosity exists in the part of the border between Cumbria and Scotland. Could be wrong, mind.

EDIT: FTAOD, I've only used Cumbria as an example because I have no idea what attitudes are like further east. Would be surprised if it was different, however.

[sw2borshch]

When you hear Berwickers (Tweedsiders?) on Tyne Tees news they sound like Scots, so it is possible that the Jocks and the Geordies was lying to us.

[Lang Spoon]

Trevor Steven's accent sounds like a halfway Scots/NE mash-up to my ears.

[sw2borshch]

Can't believe one of the Geordies wasn't called Jackie.

[sw2borshch]

Crikey, it's like a bunch of Weetabix have become human.

[Toby Gymshorts]

Surely one of them should look like Eric Bristow?

[sw2borshch]

Not after the Welsh flag incident.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Duncan Gardner That was in response to a question about whether there had ever been visceral English-Welsh racism. A similar question came up regarding Wales having a common language on another thread. I think history is worth knowing because it explains so much, from the reason there are very few north-south transport connections to why most people in Wales that read newspapers read right wing newspapers printed in England.

I'm not a big fan of people assuming England's approach to Wales is benign and protective when Wales has been systemically and deliberately under-funded in this century let alone the past. The current government is greenlighting plans to reduce Welsh representation in the UK Parliament and keeps attacking the Welsh Parliament including anti-devolution sentiment in its criteria for Conservative candidates in the Senedd.

I'd be interested to hear what has actually materially changed since the start of the 20th century that means we can just move on and forget that nastiness happened.

(And if you want more recent anti-Welsh comments that would have ended careers if other ethnicities had been targeted, here's a list: https://nation.cymru/opinion/10-of-t...ou-gobsmacked/ That article does get into some older history right at the end)

The "any other ethnicity" stuff leaves me fairly cold tbh. Welsh people aren't subject to deportation to countries they've never lived in. Should they commit crimes abroad, they're not stripped of their citizenship. We don't have to endure people publicly claiming child-abuse is solely a problem within the Welsh community, we didn't have a political party just win an election promising pogroms against us.

When Boris Johnson attacked people for not speaking English at home, Welsh speakers (together with Scots and Gaelic speakers as well as middle-class European nationals) are largely collateral damage - we know who he was really directing his words towards.

Something that's interesting with Welsh, compared to other indigenous minority languages in Britain and Ireland, is that Welsh survives in relative strength because it hasn't faced a genocidal campaign of extermination. The famine and the highland clearances dealt Scots Gaelic and Beurla Reagaird blows from which they may never recover. Cornish fell into terminal decline following the failure of the prayer book rebellion.

Welsh has faced centuries of institutional hostility, sure, but English only education, the Brawd y Llyfrau Gleision and Welsh Nots had far less impact on whether people actually spoke the language in the community (and hence on the retreat of the language) than patterns of migration during the course of the industrial revolution.

[Toby Gymshorts]

Not after the Welsh flag incident.

I'd forgotten about that. Yowzer.

[laverte]

How great btw to hear from people on otf so well informed from all over the countries about identity and nationality.

Yes, thank you, it's really interesting and eye-opening. i think i must have bought into some rah-rah stuff about the healing power of sports and completely underestimated the role of men's football, notably at club level, as a vehicle for voicing Anglo supremacy. But middle-class disdain, eg Clarkson's "one-eyed Scottish idiot" remark, is familiar to me and i understand the impact it can have.

In terms of independence, I support it not cos I believe there needs to be a Welsh nation state but because I think the British state is sufficiently bad (both in its impacts domestically and internationally) that I want it to be broken up in the hope that the fragments have less capacity to do harm.

Yes, in talking about Britishness as an identity i have overlooked the reality of Britain/UK as a state agent, in all its ugliness. And i can see how the facade of 'Britain' feels like a ruse for 'England' to make decisions on behalf of – to impose them on – Scotland and Wales. Seen in those terms, breaking up Britain would reveal its true essence as a projection of 'English' power.

But if i've put those quotation marks there, it's because the state of course doesn't represent the interests of the many people who live in England yet have no investment in English nationalism, are for the most part excluded from it, and indeed are frequently the target of its hatred and violence.

That doesn't leave me misty eyed about a future Welsh state but I firmly believe there's no possibility for an inclusive encompassing Britishness (however much people might want there to be) because Britishness can't unshackle itself from England.

That makes perfect sense to me. i guess my hope is that Englishness will eventually unshackle itself from England, by virtue of so many of its people being from elsewhere. But the disappearance of a viable white indigenous British identity may make that process more difficult.

The idea is that Scottish and Welsh don't regard nationalism as something to be entertained in splendid isolation, but rather as perfectly compatible with a European identity, much as has been the case in Ireland, and indeed among Bretons, Basques, Corsicans and Frisians, etc, but English BAMEs would naturally identify more with their countries of ancestry.

i don't think that last part is true. BaME English people voted to remain in the EU; in fact, their voting patterns are remarkably similar to Scotland's. i think that's why i see Scottish nationalism somewhat through the lens of desolidarisation.

But the crux of the issue is there: what qualifies Bretons to have their own nation-state, while Black and Arab Parisians and Quercinois (yes there are some!) are stuck under French rule? Can we justify self-rule by describing the French presence in Brittany as "colonial", without making a connection to the surveillance and repression of its other racial and religious minorities who do not have a historic claim to territory? If "European identity" was a real thing, wouldn't it be possible to choose it as your primary or indeed exclusive identity, just as i can choose to call myself British and disclaim my Englishness or Scottishness? (In any case, i fear the take-up would be minimal, as the EU isn't awfully popular among BaME people in continental Europe.)

What i'm struggling to appreciate is the lure of ethnocultural nationalism in the 21st century, as anything more than expediency. But then i'm one of Theresa May's citizens of nowhere: a foreigner in every nation.

Historically it was even more visceral. It was an institutional attempt at cultural genocide to erase Welsh as a.language, Welshness as a culture and Wales as a nation. That wasn't that long ago. Both my grandfathers were caned as children for speaking Welsh in school. I've had to relearn a language that was literally beaten out of my family.

There's absolutely no doubt that the British state, and English unionists, have failed to make Britishness into the decentralised, multicultural, multilingual, outward-looking identity they have puffed it up to be. We learnt nothing of Welsh or Scottish history at school in England, no words of their living languages, none of their literary traditions. i've only been to Wales twice: one time was on a pilgrimage to St Davids where the services switched between the two languages. i'd never read and heard Welsh at the same time before, and it really moved me, it fit so perfectly with the surroundings, the whole event was as beautiful as i imagine protestantism can ever be. At the same time, if it had been all in Welsh, i'd have been bored after a few minutes.

My grandfather was beaten at school because he couldn't read.

[sw2borshch]

Our dad was also chastised (beaten, I think) for writing with his left, although I believe attitudes to cuddywifters have moved on from the 1950s.

[pebblethefish]

My grandfather was beaten at school because he couldn't read.

And did that learn him?

[Duncan Gardner]

sw2borshch my primary school in 1971 was in East Africa and run by a recent Rhodesian Army veteran. Attitudes in England were probably a bit more enlightened

Patrick Thistle I agree with most of what you say above. Was trying to give some context to the Welsh corner/ anti lefthandedness stuff. Briefly, many/ most authorities in 1970 acted badly by today's standards. We've just developed new evils to replace them

Ps surely it matters little whether Westminster cuts Welsh MP numbers, or increases them as Harold Wilson did? 30, 40 or 50 would still be dwarves by the South of England

[elguapo4]

Every left hander that I know of my generation, in school late 60s to early 80s, was forced to write right handed to some degree. Left handed is " Ciotog " in Irish, and is one of the few words that is regularly used in stead of the English version.

On teaching methods in the past, my brother had a stutter when he was a child, and one of his teachers methods was shouting " stop doing that " at him, and complaining to my mother about it.

[Toby Gymshorts]

My dad was also battered for being left-handed, although I think that might have stopped when he got physically bigger than, and subsequently threatened to kick the shit out of, the teacher responsible.

Halcyon days, eh?

[sw2borshch]

Yeah, there's a tale about our dad's mam going down to the school and threatening to swing the teacher round by his moustache.

[Nefertiti2]

It's interesting because this English nationalism has gone hand in hand with hollowing our and in some ways complete eradication of regional power and insititutions in England.


ITV regions have disappeared. Local government has been hugely weakened, as have regional culture, shopping centres and high streets. Many universities operate more nationally than locally, Local newspapers are all owned by Reach and local journalism has become centralised.

[sw2borshch]

I can remember the Inland Revenue having regional HQs which are now long gone.