W(h)ither Unionism and Loyalism?

[Duncan Gardner]

I bet there's rich folk smoking, the best cigars king size
They're probably drinking Buckie, and eating Ulster fries
Well I know I had it coming, that's why I'm stuck in H Block
But the train just keeps on coming
Through Ballyhackamore, Knock

Well if they freed me from the prison cell, and I could leave this place
I'd be a community worker on that New Lodge interface
Far from Long Kesh Prison, that's what I'm going to do
And the only lonesome whistle's at Solitude or Seaview

[willie1foot]

Having applied online for a shit-load of jobs recently, I have noticed that most have the 'Scotland' option when asking for place of birth. I'm pretty sure only 'United Kingdom' was available not too many years ago. Are they preparing for the inevitable(?) breakup?

[S. aureus]

I'm English. Unfortunately there are a lot of arseholes who also are, but there's nothing I can do about that.
I'd probably prefer to be British, but I have an ill-thought out idea that this is actually cheapening the experience of non-English citizens of the UK about English domination of the union - can I really claim to be one with the Scots or Welsh or Irish when they are not viewed by those in power as being as important as the English?. Ideally I'd like to be European, but that's gone now.
Maybe this doesn't make sense. I also think that I might be feeling differently about this post-Brexit than I did before.

[Flynnie]

Ugh Dunc you've reminded me of the almost footage free piss poor Rte doc on Johnny Cash in Oireland in 63. Some auld wifie who almost saw him in Rush till he cancelled cos speed comedown and culchie post Emergency North County Dublin being woeful, a blowhard talkin about how the Irish feel country music in their soul and other classic moments. Must be tough making telly in Covid.

I don't think Biden or Congress will tolerate any fucking with the GFA, and Biden seems personally invested, but it's not like there's an Irish voting bloc over there now so as long as bombs don't go off the attention will be minimal.

The Belfast Agreement is basically the biggest Democratic foreign policy achievement of the last 30 years. The idea it can just be ripped up and nobody in America will care because we're too busy dying our beer green is dumb.

[Lang Spoon]

I said neither the Pres or Congress will tolerate any fucking with the GFA.

[Lang Spoon]

The minutiae of the dreary steeples prob won't be number one on anyone's agenda though if Stormont doesn't fall again/supply chains for overpriced supermarkets are worked out.

[Duncan Gardner]

Flynnie if you think solving the Ulster Crisis is the Democrats" great achievement fine, but I'm afraid that's hardly much of a reflection on their foreign policy generally

The Good Friday agreement won't be torn up but it will need to be replaced by something that reflects reality now, not 30 years ago.

I doubt there was ever much likelihood of hard border posts and the like. Not because Sleepy Joe or Knuckler Nance disapproves, but simply as checking at Aldergrove, Sydenham and Fortwilliam is cheaper and easier

Enjoy that green beer

[laverte]

Have you encountered these reports before? Might be of interest - about who identifies as British verus English broken down by ethnicity, national origin and religion. There's also equivalent reports for Welsh versus British and Scottish versus British.

Thanks for those, Bizarre Löw Triangle . They most certainly are of interest, and seem broadly to support my hunch. It's eye-opening to me that the term 'British' signifies virtually opposite ideas for English people versus Scottish and Welsh. In England it's the more inclusive and outward-looking denominator; in Scotland and Wales it's becoming synonymous with Anglo domination, Tory-Farageist muscular unionism, and the erasure of Scottish/Welsh identities.

Regarding the prospects for wresting English identity away from white nationalists, i had given some thought to mixed-race children, with a white parent who identifies as English rather than British. Very interesting point that it's British identity which is acquired by (and accorded to) immigrants to England. In post-Britain, that would of course change. It's pretty much a fiction anyway: i don't imagine many naturalised Brits move between England, Scotland and Wales. And to the folks back home, the UK, GB and England are probably all the same.

i understand the appeal of Scottish and Welsh nationalism, the enduring obnoxiousness of Anglo supremacism, and the desire to free oneself of Tory governments potentially for eternity. What i don't quite understand is the appeal of the 'independent' nation-state as the vehicle for progress. Indeed, i'm concerned that, by abandoning Britishness rather than claiming it alongside a Scottish or Welsh identity, nationalists are dissociating themselves from BaME English people, depriving them of an ally and of a label which helps them to assert that they belong here in this country. The real problem, of course, is the uninclusiveness of 'English', which is why i'm searching for hope on that front. But i can't quite get my head around the dream of putting up more borders and barriers in a world that has more than enough of them, especially when the connection between these new fenced-off nations and the ethnic basis for their existence is, for me, ambiguous or perhaps i should say unresolved. i may be underestimating the weight and breadth of Anglo domination here. i see it as primarily political and cultural. Is it more all-encompassing, more visceral than that? Does it feel more like racism?

laverte Did Parker's relationship with Eva Longoria add to his reputation in France or did it fail to register?

Desperate Housewives was huge over here for a while, and that brought him to the attention of a completely different demographic, but I don't know to what extent that may have applied in France.

It failed to register with me when i was writing about him yesterday. i had completely forgotten! But, yes, it was well-known and would have added to his aura. Desperate housewives was very big in France: it was one of the first 'prestige' American series shown in primetime on a mainstream channel, in the same timeslot each week, in the right order*. Up until then, priority in prime time had been given to movies and French productions, and American series tended to get shuffled around the schedule.

Longoria did the Parce que vous le valez bien cosmetics adverts for a while. She had the highest profile among the housewives.

*There was (and still is, in some cases) a super-annoying tendency to show two episodes of a show back to back, but for them to be, say, episode 8 followed by episode 3. i'm not sure but i think it's to do with quotas and what counts as prime time; in any case, it's absurd, and one of many reasons why young French people don't watch network tv.

[Diable Rouge]

Thanks for those, Bizarre Löw Triangle . They most certainly are of interest, and seem broadly to support my hunch. It's eye-opening to me that the term 'British' signifies virtually opposite ideas for English people versus Scottish and Welsh. In England it's the more inclusive and outward-looking denominator; in Scotland and Wales it's becoming synonymous with Anglo domination, Tory-Farageist muscular unionism, and the erasure of Scottish/Welsh identities.

Regarding the prospects for wresting English identity away from white nationalists, i had given some thought to mixed-race children, with a white parent who identifies as English rather than British. Very interesting point that it's British identity which is acquired by (and accorded to) immigrants to England. In post-Britain, that would of course change. It's pretty much a fiction anyway: i don't imagine many naturalised Brits move between England, Scotland and Wales. And to the folks back home, the UK, GB and England are probably all the same.

i understand the appeal of Scottish and Welsh nationalism, the enduring obnoxiousness of Anglo supremacism, and the desire to free oneself of Tory governments potentially for eternity. What i don't quite understand is the appeal of the 'independent' nation-state as the vehicle for progress. Indeed, i'm concerned that, by abandoning Britishness rather than claiming it alongside a Scottish or Welsh identity, nationalists are dissociating themselves from BaME English people, depriving them of an ally and of a label which helps them to assert that they belong here in this country. The real problem, of course, is the uninclusiveness of 'English', which is why i'm searching for hope on that front. But i can't quite get my head around the dream of putting up more borders and barriers in a world that has more than enough of them, especially when the connection between these new fenced-off nations and the ethnic basis for their existence is, for me, ambiguous or perhaps i should say unresolved. i may be underestimating the weight and breadth of Anglo domination here. i see it as primarily political and cultural. Is it more all-encompassing, more visceral than that? Does it feel more like racism?



It failed to register with me when i was writing about him yesterday. i had completely forgotten! But, yes, it was well-known and would have added to his aura. Desperate housewives was very big in France: it was one of the first 'prestige' American series shown in primetime on a mainstream channel, in the same timeslot each week, in the right order*. Up until then, priority in prime time had been given to movies and French productions, and American series tended to get shuffled around the schedule.

Longoria did the Parce que vous le valez bien cosmetics adverts for a while. She had the highest profile among the housewives.

*There was (and still is, in some cases) a super-annoying tendency to show two episodes of a show back to back, but for them to be, say, episode 8 followed by episode 3. i'm not sure but i think it's to do with quotas and what counts as prime time; in any case, it's absurd, and one of many reasons why young French people don't watch network tv.

The idea is that Scottish and Welsh don't regard nationalism as something to be entertained in splendid isolation, but rather as perfectly compatible with a European identity, much as has been the case in Ireland, and indeed among Bretons, Basques, Corsicans and Frisians, etc, but English BAMEs would naturally identify more with their countries of ancestry.

[Lang Spoon]

In Scotland BAME groups have (recently anyways) tended to self describe as eg Asian Scots and not as British, and the majority of all minority groups (bar the English population resident in Scotland, and EU citizens (how times change!)) voted Yes in Indyref1.

[E10 Rifle]

I've been keen and happy to describe myself as English at various points down the years (just as I feel a real affinity for my Irish and Welsh family roots too, not least because my parents and two of my siblings currently live in those countries). In as much as any of these things matter, politically.

But the United Kingdom is a horrible thing, and a particularly horrible one at present, and I don't see much justification for it continuing while it's a centralised, disproportionately Eng Nat powered, alienating entity.

How to deal with a seemingly permanent English Tory rule is something that those of us who live there will have to face up to. The Labour party has made it abundantly clear it doesn't give a flying fuck about ever winning sizeable votes in Scotland again.

[DCI Harry Batt]

The UK is a horrible thing, for sure, but I don't get the idea that "England" isn't. Maybe differently, I suppose. Or not exactly the samedly anyway. But I can't see how "England" is less horrible.

[Duncan Gardner]

E10 Rifle Westminster Labour's attitude to Scotland can be seen as long game, not merely dismissal. Post independence is the only way in which a Left Party that isn't the SNP can win there. Of course I'm thinking of younger politicians replacing serial losers like Leonard and the dinosaurs of Broon's generation.

Anyway, I agree with you that the Ugly Monarchy's fcuked. Maybe we could persuade it's key figure future King Billy 4th to see sense like his brother?

DCI Harry Batt agreed. The problems are in what the structures do, not where the borders are drawn

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

Thanks for those, Bizarre Löw Triangle . They most certainly are of interest, and seem broadly to support my hunch. It's eye-opening to me that the term 'British' signifies virtually opposite ideas for English people versus Scottish and Welsh. In England it's the more inclusive and outward-looking denominator; in Scotland and Wales it's becoming synonymous with Anglo domination, Tory-Farageist muscular unionism, and the erasure of Scottish/Welsh identities.

Regarding the prospects for wresting English identity away from white nationalists, i had given some thought to mixed-race children, with a white parent who identifies as English rather than British. Very interesting point that it's British identity which is acquired by (and accorded to) immigrants to England. In post-Britain, that would of course change. It's pretty much a fiction anyway: i don't imagine many naturalised Brits move between England, Scotland and Wales. And to the folks back home, the UK, GB and England are probably all the same.

i understand the appeal of Scottish and Welsh nationalism, the enduring obnoxiousness of Anglo supremacism, and the desire to free oneself of Tory governments potentially for eternity. What i don't quite understand is the appeal of the 'independent' nation-state as the vehicle for progress. Indeed, i'm concerned that, by abandoning Britishness rather than claiming it alongside a Scottish or Welsh identity, nationalists are dissociating themselves from BaME English people, depriving them of an ally and of a label which helps them to assert that they belong here in this country. The real problem, of course, is the uninclusiveness of 'English', which is why i'm searching for hope on that front. But i can't quite get my head around the dream of putting up more borders and barriers in a world that has more than enough of them, especially when the connection between these new fenced-off nations and the ethnic basis for their existence is, for me, ambiguous or perhaps i should say unresolved. i may be underestimating the weight and breadth of Anglo domination here. i see it as primarily political and cultural. Is it more all-encompassing, more visceral than that? Does it feel more like racism?

It's not racism. It's a different sort of chauvinism. I dunno, I first encountered it through football. Every week watching Wrexham the away supporters would spend half their time (at least) singing God Save the Queen. You rarely heard anti-English songs in response - you would occasionally hear them but lots of fans disliked them in part cos the club's support and player recruitment is cross border. You'd also very rarely hear Welsh patriotic songs (the tunes of Men of Harlech and Cwm Rhondda are borrowed for Wrexham songs). Wrexham's "welshness" felt to me something that was meant as a taunt reclaimed in that context.

In the less Welsh-speaking parts of Wales, pre-devolution, Welshness largely manifested itself in this vague and often intangible sense of not quite being British because to be British (properly) was to be English. Yes, white anglophone Welsh people had it extremely easy compared to other minority groups - the sense of alienation largely confined to periods or locations of intense English nationalism (major international football tournaments etc) but it certainly had an impact on how my self-identity developed.

For Cymry Cymraeg there's obviously a more acute alienation from Britishness and belonging to a wider culture that Britishness is an existential threat to and I think that results in a stronger positive identity. I can't speak for that though.

In terms of independence, I support it not cos I believe there needs to be a Welsh nation state but because I think the British state is sufficiently bad (both in its impacts domestically and internationally) that I want it to be broken up in the hope that the fragments have less capacity to do harm.

That doesn't leave me misty eyed about a future Welsh state but I firmly believe there's no possibility for an inclusive encompassing Britishness (however much people might want there to be) because Britishness can't unshackle itself from England.

[ursus arctos]

That "sort of like racism, but not racism" reality is at the heart of the issues with the Italian ban on chants, songs, signs, etc promoting "territorial discrimination" (virtually always against the south from the north and usually referencing cholera and/or volcanoes).

And the idea that a broader and deeper EU would allow for the healthy expression of regional identity without the baggage of "nationalism" was very much a thing when I was studying/working in the field in the late 80s/early 90s. I hear a lot of echoes of the times when Catalunya and Flanders were very excited about opening delegations in Bruxelles.

[E10 Rifle]

Westminster Labour's attitude to Scotland can be seen as long game, not merely dismissal. Post independence is the only way in which a Left Party that isn't the SNP can win there.

I think you're crediting them with way too much nous and intelligence there.

[Duncan Gardner]

Heh. Think I should have said "can also be seen"

We must meet for a beer in BT when things are a bit more stable

[Nefertiti2]

must be very hard for the DUP at the moment, to realise how little the person you've been declaring your loyalty for so long cares about you. Like Betty Draper in Mad Men but with bonfires.

It's the first time in my memory that the Conservative Party has the open support of British fascists. The same people who threatened Anna Soubry and beat up Owen Jones - and associates of those who shot Jo Cox - sing Johnson's name.

I think they see some Union Jackery around Ireland and Scotland is a very good way to fire up the base, and I suspect a bit of blood does them no harm at all.

How great btw to hear from people on otf so well informed from all over the countries about identity and nationality.

[Duncan Gardner]

Nefertiti2 the DUP are venal (of course) but I doubt they really believe the wrapped in flag nonsense any more than Johnson or Farage do. What they really want is to keep local control if wider politics change, while maintaining the fiction of standing up to the Free State

Disagree about the bit of blood. Violence can get out of hand and won't always be localised. I give you the Helmut Moltke/ Mike Tyson doctrine: everyone has a game plan until the other guy snacks you in the mouth or blows up the Parliament car park

While it's true that there remains a significant support for the Brit military and it's excesses in NI (many of whom will have a genuine grievance, not just rank pulling like mine) most of those guys are retired now. They'd be little use in a rammy or if a few English High Streets go bang

[Lang Spoon]

Partly cos of the fear of what would happen if conflict spread there, and partly cos it was a good place for Both Sides to hide out/raise cash, Scotland didn't really see much Action during the Troubles.

things could get v horrible in unpredictable ways were a conflagration to start on either side of the future Bridge to PortPatrick. You'd hope even Johnson wouldn't risk that.

[Nefertiti2]

I’m not qualified to make any analysis about the North and. I’m sure “ loyalty “ is away of imposing local control

the group now around Johnson which includes Patel Reesmogg and some Brexit/ UKIP remnants have quite string links with the European and U.K. far right Who understand the use of a deniable fasc ist movement ready to get involve in physical violence

Under Cameron the Conservatives were prepared to go into coalition with German neonazis. I can see no reason to assume that Johnson wouldn’t want sectarian violence in Scotland if it helped his cause.

[Lang Spoon]

His cause might as easily be helped by cutting Scotland free/"Liberating" England. If he approves a Section 30, I think it's almost a cert the vote will be yes this time.

[Duncan Gardner]

Nefertiti2 While I'm pessimistic about future violence as outlined above, I think Lang Spoon offers a more likely route for Johnson. Why kick it off in Glasgow or Belfast with the real risk that could spread to London SW1?

[Patrick Thistle]

Regarding the prospects for wresting English identity away from white nationalists, i had given some thought to mixed-race children, with a white parent who identifies as English rather than British. Very interesting point that it's British identity which is acquired by (and accorded to) immigrants to England. In post-Britain, that would of course change. It's pretty much a fiction anyway: i don't imagine many naturalised Brits move between England, Scotland and Wales. And to the folks back home, the UK, GB and England are probably all the same.

I've worked with several people my age or a bit younger who have lived in Cardiff all their life but identify as Somali. If pushed on their nationality they might say Welsh. It's a strong culture within the city but when people refer to "the Somali community" it's a reference to the family background rather than them not being Welsh. You can be both. They are.

i understand the appeal of Scottish and Welsh nationalism, the enduring obnoxiousness of Anglo supremacism, and the desire to free oneself of Tory governments potentially for eternity. What i don't quite understand is the appeal of the 'independent' nation-state as the vehicle for progress.

I'd be interested in what the alternatives would be. Wales has seen its resources extracted for centuries by England (see its trabsport infrastructure for evidence) and contains the poorest communities in the entirety of Western Europe. How has being an adjunct to England benefited Wales? The UK Parliament has literally had decades to do something about this under all kinds of governments and has done fuck all. A common theme in the growing Indy movement is that they've had their chance.

Indeed, i'm concerned that, by abandoning Britishness rather than claiming it alongside a Scottish or Welsh identity, nationalists are dissociating themselves from BaME English people, depriving them of an ally and of a label which helps them to assert that they belong here in this country. The real problem, of course, is the uninclusiveness of 'English', which is why i'm searching for hope on that front.

1) well if you think of the UK or Britain as "this country" then that could be a problem. But if you recognise them as different countries then I'm not sure what the concern is.
2) if "English" is uninclusive then maybe that indicates where the problem country is. I know lots of black lads who are happy to say they're Welsh.

But i can't quite get my head around the dream of putting up more borders and barriers in a world that has more than enough of them, especially when the connection between these new fenced-off nations and the ethnic basis for their existence is, for me, ambiguous or perhaps i should say unresolved.

This is an argument against all borders. There are cultural differences in the different countries. If you want to see them then you're welcome to come visit.

i may be underestimating the weight and breadth of Anglo domination here. i see it as primarily political and cultural. Is it more all-encompassing, more visceral than that? Does it feel more like racism?
.

I grew up in Shrewsbury on the other side of the border and I can confirm that there, yes, it's racism. From a hoolie gang that called itself the English Border Front and boasted about attacking Welsh people to casual constant jokes about sheep shaggers.

Historically it was even more visceral. It was an institutional attempt at cultural genocide to erase Welsh as a.language, Welshness as a culture and Wales as a nation. That wasn't that long ago. Both my grandfathers were caned as children for speaking Welsh in school. I've had to relearn a language that was literally beaten out of my family.

[Nefertiti2]

Nefertiti2 While I'm pessimistic about future violence as outlined above, I think Lang Spoon offers a more likely route for Johnson. Why kick it off in Glasgow or Belfast with the real risk that could spread to London SW1?

because if it spreads to SW1 it will strengthen Johnson, not weaken him