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W(h)ither Unionism and Loyalism?

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    W(h)ither Unionism and Loyalism?

    Originally posted by TABS
    Reading the comments about the Old Firm, I find myself wondering what is going to happen to loyalism, in scotland and Northern ireland when they inevitably lose? At some point scotland is going to become Independent and Ireland reunite
    As prompted by OTF's resident Provo basher on the Millwall booing thread

    Talking to family and friends my age or older there is a clear fatalism. "It'll come in time but I'll be too old or dead to care'.

    Until recently I suggested on football threads here that even if current NI wunderkinder Ethan Galbraith or Dan Ballard last as long as McAuldlad or Methugheselah, there wil still be a GAWA to retire from. Maybe that's unrealistic...

    More positively the trains to Dublin would improve- instead of queuing up behind all the DART branches to Ballygobackwards, they'd be the main line again

    (apologies for hijacking other threads on the breakdown of Failedstatia generally

    Disunited 'Kingdom's' teats (6,5)

    #2
    Speaking on behalf of the English, I'd say it's pretty obvious that Scotland is going to go in the next 5-10 years. Wales will have a look and if it's successful, then they'll go too. Which would leave us with NI, who are the ones we've been trying to get rid of for the last fifty years.

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      #3
      As long as NI Unionism continues to solely define itself as a Protestant concern, rather than campaign on social issues such as the NHS, the internecine rivalry will continue to provide diminishing returns. Of course nationalism has also been in stasis for the last 15 years, but at least has had the sense to make progressive appeals to non-aligned voters on Europe and community affairs.

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        #4
        Didn't some of the decommissioned Loyalist murder gangs try that, DR?

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          #5
          A bit of a tangent, but i'm interested in what is happening to Britishness as an identity. Scots, especially young Scots, are rejecting it to describe themselves, in favour of 'Scottish', as part of a decolonising movement. But there's almost no take-up of 'English' among BME people born in England nor among adult migrants to England, from the EU or elsewhere. 'British' is losing its association with unionism and is fast becoming a sort of parallel identity to 'English', often a hyphenated one (Black British, British Asian, etc), for those of us uninvested in white English nationalism.

          What impact would Scottish and one day Welsh independence have on the nature (or perhaps the very viability) of these British identities? Is there evidence of an 'English' identity being claimed by BME people, perhaps through the medium of (eventually post-British) sports teams and personalities?

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            #6
            It's a very interesting question.

            That kind of development in sport will be very difficult for as long as the most visible and vocal elements of "England" teams' support remains both disproportionally white and reactionary at best.

            It may be one of the elements driving the shift from supporters strongly identifying with national teams to focusing on individual teams and players.

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              #7
              I'm English, in the sense that I was born in England.

              This "Englishness" thing that gets bandied around in the sunlit post-Brexit uplands means nothing to me. It's a word, an accident of birth. Anyone who adopts being English as an attitude or an identity is a bad weirdo, to put it mildly.

              I dearly hope that being English doesn't define me, because I'd fucking hate it if it did.

              EDIT: Apols that this isn't really related to the OP, but laverte's post was (as usual) a thought-provoking one.
              Last edited by Toby Gymshorts; 05-01-2021, 16:18.

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                #8
                Especially so when she steals laverte's log in

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                  #9
                  Shit, yeah. Sorry. Edited (I am now blushing furiously).

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                    #10
                    Originally posted by TonTon View Post
                    Didn't some of the decommissioned Loyalist murder gangs try that, DR?
                    You can even trace elements of that tendency as far back as Terence O'Neill, who appointed a Catholic minister to the old Stormont Cabinet, and the Vanguard party ultimately collapsed when it tried to move in that direction. Yes, loyalism did attempt such outreach, particularly the PUP and David Ervine, with his widow promoting the Irish language in East Belfast, to rather mixed effect.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by laverte View Post
                      A bit of a tangent, but i'm interested in what is happening to Britishness as an identity. Scots, especially young Scots, are rejecting it to describe themselves, in favour of 'Scottish', as part of a decolonising movement. But there's almost no take-up of 'English' among BME people born in England nor among adult migrants to England, from the EU or elsewhere. 'British' is losing its association with unionism and is fast becoming a sort of parallel identity to 'English', often a hyphenated one (Black British, British Asian, etc), for those of us uninvested in white English nationalism.

                      What impact would Scottish and one day Welsh independence have on the nature (or perhaps the very viability) of these British identities? Is there evidence of an 'English' identity being claimed by BME people, perhaps through the medium of (eventually post-British) sports teams and personalities?
                      As you say, could it be that minorities in England consider "Britishness" as more emblematic of a progressive internationalism that mainstream "Englishness" has yet to embrace in its cultural development?

                      An interesting perspective from Wales:

                      https://twitter.com/IrshadIrram/status/1346048979503607812

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                        #12
                        Feels to me that the current Uk government might be quite happy with a return to nationalism and increased tension in both Ireland and Scotland. It's not going to make any difference to their inbuilt majority -indeed it might even strengthen it.

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                          #13
                          The separate announcements and rules over the past year have made me feel more English, although I still wouldn't dream of describing myself thus, as well as the nationalist thing, it excludes my Welsh and Irish ancestry.
                          As the countries drift apart over the next few years, perhaps younger generations, including BAME will not feel any stigma to call themselves English.

                          I don't feel qualified to comment on Northern Ireland, other than it looks like trouble ahead.

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                            #14
                            I've thought that for a few years now.

                            From a purely tactical perspective, an England only polity would seem to have a rather strong permanent Tory majority, though I am sure that they are (as always) concerned over a potential challenge from the right (I don't see them being any more concerned about their rhetorical and philosophical attachment to "unionism" than any other "principle" they may have espoused).

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                              #15
                              I've long thought the Union will die when a Tory unprincipled enough runs on an openly Eng Nat platform of ridding England of those whinging Jocks and Dreary Steeples. We are damn close to that day. They'd prob forget about the Welsh for a bit though, as is their wont.

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                                #16
                                See, e.g., the "England and Wales Cricket Board"

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                                  #17
                                  If asked I'd say I'm Welsh rather than British.

                                  People who "believe in the union" are just one twist of the wingnut away from those utter weirdos who think we should restore the monarchy to power. IMO

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                                    #18
                                    Well you are hopelessly wrong.

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                                      #19
                                      I don't call myself anything. I don't tend to get asked.

                                      I find the phrase "the Union" to be one of those things that makes me laugh, like I can't believe people are really saying it. It's like when people say they watch the queen's speech or whatever. I find it hard to believe it's real.

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                                        #20
                                        I believe in the Union. We're talking about the Industrial Workers of the World, right?

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                                          #21
                                          i didn't see which poster i was mistaken for. i hope it wasn't rodliddle.

                                          Toby, i agree wholeheartedly with your rant. That said, for a time after i first moved to England with my (Scottish) mother i felt i really had to stake my claim to Britishness, precisely because it wasn't obviously my birthright. And i'm white! i think when you're constantly being asked "No, where are you really from?" because of the colour of your skin or your odd-sounding name, it's important to be able to see yourself in the national identity of your birthplace and to invest it with some positive affective meaning.

                                          For now, 'British' seems to do this in a way that 'English' does not. In France, for example, where no alternative national identity exists, i've met several second-generation North African people who refuse to call themselves 'French'. They see no space in French identity for themselves, and so they opt into a kind of phantasmagorical statelessness, while being able to list all the stations on their metro line in the correct order. It isn't, unfortunately, so simple as I was born there, therefore I am.

                                          Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                          That kind of development in sport will be very difficult for as long as the most visible and vocal elements of "England" teams' support remains both disproportionally white and reactionary at best.

                                          It may be one of the elements driving the shift from supporters strongly identifying with national teams to focusing on individual teams and players.
                                          Ah i hadn't thought about that last trend. I was thinking more about individual sports and what might happen when someone like Mo Farah or Nicola Adams is competing for a post-British England. Can i see them posing for photos wrapped in the saint George's cross? Not yet.

                                          Your comment has got me thinking about Tony Parker. Basketball probably has the least "white and reactionary" fanbase of any sport in France but it follows the NBA more than European leagues. When Parker starred in the NBA he became a different kind of sporting celebrity in France, largely because of the fans who'd followed his career and wanted to celebrate him. He became this very hybrid character, French yet American, Black yet French yet cool, famous over there for achievements that middle-aged white sports fans just barely understood over here. His fame didn't have a lasting effect, because it happened in a time before YouTube and social media, so it was quite possible to know him without seeing him play. But it did momentarily open up possibilities for thinking about French Blackness, that there was this effortlessly brilliant, softly-spoken giant drifting back and forth across the Atlantic, multilingual, likeable, unassuming, light years away from all the archetypes.

                                          i feel like i'm derailing the thread here!

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by laverte View Post
                                            i didn't see which poster i was mistaken for. i hope it wasn't rodliddle.
                                            It was Balders. I'd just been reading her litter-picking thread and, well, all you women look the same, don't you?

                                            Originally posted by laverte View Post
                                            Toby, i agree wholeheartedly with your rant. That said, for a time after i first moved to England with my (Scottish) mother i felt i really had to stake my claim to Britishness, precisely because it wasn't obviously my birthright. And i'm white! i think when you're constantly being asked "No, where are you really from?" because of the colour of your skin or your odd-sounding name, it's important to be able to see yourself in the national identity of your birthplace and to invest it with some positive affective meaning.
                                            I can see why that would be a thing. TLMG gets the "no, where are you really, really from?" all. The. Time. It infuriates me, but she mostly takes it with the usual grace she applies to everything (on other more memorable occasions she has adopted the type of withering sarcasm that many people seem not to be able to detect). Apparently she was once asked the question by a bloke delivering a parcel on behalf of a courier company; on the third time of his asking "no, but where..." she politely closed the door on him.

                                            I should think so too.

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                                              #23
                                              Keep it coming all

                                              laverte tangents welcome (as I mentioned this is a tangent in itself from the wider failed state discussion

                                              pebblethefish the Brits (and Irish nationalism broadly) have been about as successful in Project Pull the Plug as their various football teams in international tournaments these past 50 years...

                                              Diable Rouge broad unionism isn't as narrowly linked to religion etc as you suggest. Recent NI elections show there are now 3 blocs with 20%+ support. The crucial unknown is how those Alliance voters will turn when there's a poll with only 2 options

                                              Nefertiti2 the Tories clearly benefit electorally from ditching Scotland and Wales and for many long established reasons in ditching NI. I'd imagine they'd prefer the divorces to be as peaceful as possible. So say Lithuania or Slovenia, rather than the Troubles scaled up to disrupt England for decades

                                              ursus arctos as you suggest the Tories are almost always very strong in England. They won't always get 49% as in the last GE but unless the oppo regroup 40% or even less might be enough

                                              TonTon aye, the supposed keenness on the Union is both odd and clearly much exaggerated. England is 85% of this country and when almost all of its political leaders/ media outlets etc just aren't that bothered, you can be confident that wider public opinion doesn't really give a toss. As for Brenda's speech, my late mother asked me every year if I was watching- even though I told her in 1973 it was infantile nonsense
                                              Last edited by Duncan Gardner; 05-01-2021, 18:52.

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                I don't feel especially British, not least because I'm not a citizen and for, uh, ancestral reasons, but I really, really don't feel English. I guess when I bought into the UK, I bought into all four constituent nations, so I feel connected to all four of them. But that doesn't really preclude my feeling they should be independent nations. They feel different to England when I'm in them.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by laverte View Post
                                                  i didn't see which poster i was mistaken for. i hope it wasn't rodliddle.

                                                  Toby, i agree wholeheartedly with your rant. That said, for a time after i first moved to England with my (Scottish) mother i felt i really had to stake my claim to Britishness, precisely because it wasn't obviously my birthright. And i'm white! i think when you're constantly being asked "No, where are you really from?" because of the colour of your skin or your odd-sounding name, it's important to be able to see yourself in the national identity of your birthplace and to invest it with some positive affective meaning.

                                                  For now, 'British' seems to do this in a way that 'English' does not. In France, for example, where no alternative national identity exists, i've met several second-generation North African people who refuse to call themselves 'French'. They see no space in French identity for themselves, and so they opt into a kind of phantasmagorical statelessness, while being able to list all the stations on their metro line in the correct order. It isn't, unfortunately, so simple as I was born there, therefore I am.
                                                  Have you encountered these reports before? Might be of interest - about who identifies as British verus English broken down by ethnicity, national origin and religion. There's also equivalent reports for Welsh versus British and Scottish versus British.

                                                  They're also from 2011 census data which feels like an entire lifetime ago.

                                                  http://hummedia.manchester.ac.uk/ins...ls-british.pdf
                                                  http://hummedia.manchester.ac.uk/ins...tity-wales.pdf
                                                  http://hummedia.manchester.ac.uk/ins...y-scotland.pdf

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