Biphobia in the Dating Game?

[Diable Rouge]

Came across on my time line, and it got me thinking:

https://twitter.com/LeoQuartermain/status/1328338731384909825

On the one hand, the guy does seem well rid if his potential partner is that intolerant of his dating history. On the other, however, if the girl he had been with was exclusively heterosexual, she would be entitled to transparency beforehand, so perhaps gays should receive the same honesty.

[WOM]

Rather than 'phobia', perhaps it's his experience that bi partners are less long-term oriented and more interested in short term 'back and forth' between sexes. Or 'bi' being shorthand for dabbling or experimenting.

[beak]

Never really considered it my business to inquire about or pass comment on what my partners have been up to before I've got involved, to be honest.

[WOM]

He's said "Why do I always attract them?" which points to negative past experience. He can't really be blamed for that. It's like if you're gay and you're looking for a long term partner and someone responded with "I just came out last Tuesday", you might be like "Yeah, call me in three years when you're ready to settle down."

[Balderdasha]

I don't see why being bi would have any bearing on whether or not someone is ready to commit to a long-term relationship? Am I missing something?

[laverte]

No, you're spot on.

Rather than 'phobia', perhaps it's his experience that bi partners are less long-term oriented and more interested in short term 'back and forth' between sexes. Or 'bi' being shorthand for dabbling or experimenting.

That's pretty much the essence of biphobia, so it can't be "rather than".

Bi is not shorthand for anything. Bi people are bi. It doesn't take bi people any longer to figure out their sexuality, or it wouldn't if bisexuality were not frequently called into question as a stable sexual identity. A couple of bad experiences with bi guys is no excuse for making this kind of generalisation, which is depressingly widespread in LGBT circles.

[via vicaria]

No, you're spot on.



That's pretty much the essence of biphobia, so it can't be "rather than".

Bi is not shorthand for anything. Bi people are bi. It doesn't take bi people any longer to figure out their sexuality, or it wouldn't if bisexuality were not frequently called into question as a stable sexual identity. A couple of bad experiences with bi guys is no excuse for making this kind of generalisation, which is depressingly widespread in LGBT circles.

Yes, this.

if the girl he had been with was exclusively heterosexual, she would be entitled to transparency beforehand

Also, wtf? Why 'entitled'?

[WOM]

A couple of bad experiences with bi guys is no excuse for making this kind of generalisation, which is depressingly widespread in LGBT circles.

Not to parse your prose, exactly, but if something is 'depressingly widespread in LGBT circles', mightn't that speak to it being a frequently experienced thing?

[MsD]

I'm not, and never have been, in "the dating game", but I wouldn't want to get involved with a man who was bi. It's not because I think he wouldn't be a great person or anything. I just tend to think that one aspect of his sexual nature would be unfulfilled in a relationship with me - of course, it's rare for anyone to have all aspects of their sexual nature fulfilled within a relationship etc. but personally I just wouldn't want that hassle and it would raise a "complication" red flag from the off. And, I have had one partner cheat on me with a man, and then go for HIV testing/counselling which I knew nothing about, while we were having unsafe sex.

I don't think that makes me phobic, just very self-protective (which is why I've been single a while now) but it might if I went on Twitter generalising about any type of "them".

[Patrick Thistle]

I know a guy who came out as bisexual, but is now married to a woman. I guess the attraction might still be there but (assuming he's not committing adultery and it's not an open marriage), I don't know how he self defines now.

In another online space I've known a few people who are polyamorous, which would (and does) give them scope to be bisexually active in a long-term multiple person relationship. But listening to one of the people in a four-way poly setting describe how she still liked her husband's girlfriend but wanted to divorce her husband because he had turned into an asshole, meanwhile her boyfriend was having a breakdown of some kind and husband's girlfriend was getting involved with him as well just made me think that all sounded exhausting.

[laverte]

i'm surprised by this thread; my response is going to be even splainier than usual.

Not to parse your prose, exactly, but if something is 'depressingly widespread in LGBT circles', mightn't that speak to it being a frequently experienced thing?

It's confirmation bias, the same as for any preconception / prejudice. There are so many negaitve stereotypes about bisexual people – that we're confused, promiscuous and neurotic, or greedy, incapable of monogamous commitment, unwilling to choose a side, going through a phase, etc – it would be difficult to exit an unsatisfying encounter or failed relationship without ticking at least one of those boxes. These preconceptions are, i think, in very wide circulation among lesbians and gay men, and thus readily confirmed.

Bisexuality is still not well understood. Some bisexual people want to be in polyamorous or open relationships, but so do some monosexual people: there's no intrinsic connection, and no good reason to associate one with the other. Lots of bisexuals are happy in monogamous relationships. The only thing distinguishing our dating preferences from anyone else's is that gender isn't always a filter for us (although it can be). For many of us, when we think about our ideal partner's gender, it's "any" rather than "all".*

These misconceptions and stereotypes have terrible consequences for bisexual people. Bi women are half again as likely as lesbians, and almost twice as likely as straight women, to be victims of intimate partner violence and abuse. Bi men are 50% more likely to have been raped than either gay or straight men. And the large proportion of monosexuals who won't consider dating a bi person works to reduce our dating pool, making us more vulnerable to abusers.

i'm in a monogamous relationship but it's important to me to continue to describe myself as bisexual, partly to challenge some of the preconceptions, partly because my individual journey out of the closet is part of what makes me who i am, and partly because i don't quite feel comfortable calling myself a lesbian among other lesbians. i don't know if that last is a cringe or a respectful acknowledgement of difference. However, i frequently find it imprudent to reveal my bisexuality in public, especially to straight men, for fear of giving the impression that i'm in some way available for 'dabbling or experimenting'. In this way, you can see how biphobic preconceptions and misconceptions mean that my sexuality is taken away from me, isn't taken seriously as a sexuality. And so it might seem that i'm 'confused' or 'unwilling to choose a side'. That's not accurate. The problem isn't with me.

*Hence the youth is forgoing the label "bisexual" for "pansexual" – the pan- prefix meaning 'all', as in, gulp, pandemic. i'm too old to do likewise, and too attached to my trusty old label, and can't quite get past the juvenile idea that a pansexual is someone with a crockery fetish.

[WOM]

Thank you for taking the time to explain that.

[Patrick Thistle]

Yes, thanks laverte

Some of what you said explained a lot of things I was going to ask but then didn't know how to ask so I appreciate the 'splainin.

[S. aureus]

Is there a perception of bisexuals not being willing to go the whole way and admit that they are actually gay?

[via vicaria]

Thanks laverte , an excellent post.

Is there a perception of bisexuals not being willing to go the whole way and admit that they are actually gay?

Certainly it's a perception I've come across in the gay community. Anecdotally, I know a number of people (and, to be frank, I am one of those people) who, when initially coming to terms with their sexuality in teenage years, would define themselves as bisexual initially, before (having worked through our personal issues) feeling more comfortable identifying clearly as gay. I can't tell you exactly why this happens/ed; for me, it just felt like I was a little less 'different' to others/my family if I wasn't altogether gay. It felt like a less unsafe label, to be less excluded from relationships that the people around me might consider 'normal'. Later in my teens I felt more confident in myself and able to be more honest about my orientation.

At least from my experience, it's not uncommon for gay people to go through this process, which lends itself to a perception amongst the LGBT community that bisexuals are just part way along that same journey and haven't yet 'admitted' to themselves and others that they're one way or the other. Erasure of the 'B' in LGBT is depressingly widespread in the community.

[MsD]

Interesting article with links to research here:

https://undark.org/2020/08/17/bisexu...draws-critics/

To what I said before: I find it hard to apply the political to the area of sexual preference; I don't think all those negative things about bisexual people, I just don't want to get involved with a bisexual man. Would not have minded so much when I was 20. For similar reasons, I don't want to go out with someone who describes themselves as a "bottom". Some of my best friends are bisexual bottoms. I'm only attracted to two people in the world at the moment anyway.

[MsD]

This is also interesting, by Tom Robinson about Lou Reed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...n-8909380.html

[laverte]

Thank you via vicaria for that. i feel fraudulent writing about gay cultural/dating attitudes when i haven't had even a peripheral connection with the scene since the 20th century. i get most of my info from pop stars on twitter. It's nice to know i might be following the right ones!

i think you're right that your experience is common, that the bisexual label is used tentatively, as a first step out of the closet – or at least it was in my generation (i'm 46, for a few more days). i'm interested in the reasons you gave, which suggest very strongly that the political is already there in the area of sexual preference, and powerfully so. Perhaps if it continues to get easier to come out earlier, gay boys and girls won't feel the need for such prudence. But there must always be room to experiment, question, change one's mind, especially when we're young. If that destabilises sexual identities – if it means some bisexuals are 'lifers' and others are just passing through – that's all the better as far as i'm concerned. Labels exist to help us understand ourselves, not to box us into someone else's idea of what we ought to be or do.

It's true, that might throw up a problem of intelligibility. How do i know if my date is a lifer or if they're taking the temperature? And here i'm afraid i'm going to tut-tut and tug my pearls. i worry that these dating profiles with their long checklists of do-and-don't are creating a sense of entitlement, a sense that other people should be wholly intelligible to me, so that i don't have to waste my extremely valuable time meeting them, because of course i have nothing to learn or to gain from such encounters. The tweet in the OP* reeks of this attitude. i dunno, i'm miles away from this and don't know how it works. But i'll always advocate for open minds and pleasant surprises.

*Scrolling down his feed, i see he also doesn't like the "twitter Left" or men who aren't slim. How on earth did you dig him up, Diable R?

[pebblethefish]

It should be simple. If you're dating me, you have to be dating only me. Doesn't matter if the person you're cheating on me with is a man or a woman, you're still cheating, so you're out the door.

Right, that's that sorted.

[Balderdasha]

I think I'm in the arena of not thinking that anyone's previous dating history has any bearing on a current relationship. I have three female friends who had historical long-term relationships with the opposite gender to the gender they are now in a long-term relationship with (two had long-term relationships with women, but are now married to men, one had a long-term relationship with a man, but is now married to a woman). I don't actually know if they identify as bisexual or if it really matters. Having people openly identify as bisexual helps others to know that this a sexuality that exists, and is just as valid as any other one.

I also have a male friend who used to date women, but he is now married to a man, and he is certain that his earlier relationships were an attempt to conform, but that at heart he is gay, not bisexual. It can take a while to figure these things out, but I don't think it means that those who settle and decide that they are bisexual are any flightier or less inclined to want a long-term relationship than anyone else. Who you're attracted to is separate from whether or not you are happy with the idea of long-term monogamy.

I have another female friend who dabbled with same-sex relationships as a sort of feminist, political stance. That didn't go so well. You can't really choose who you're attracted to.

[Patrick Thistle]

My gay friend Mel talks about her old boyfriends sometimes. Growing up, she dated boys because that's what girls did. I think she was always gay but either didn't want to be or didn't feel she could be until a point where she was able to be.

She also prefers "gay" to "lesbian" and really doesn't like the latter term.

[Diable Rouge]

Thank you via vicaria for that. i feel fraudulent writing about gay cultural/dating attitudes when i haven't had even a peripheral connection with the scene since the 20th century. i get most of my info from pop stars on twitter. It's nice to know i might be following the right ones!

i think you're right that your experience is common, that the bisexual label is used tentatively, as a first step out of the closet – or at least it was in my generation (i'm 46, for a few more days). i'm interested in the reasons you gave, which suggest very strongly that the political is already there in the area of sexual preference, and powerfully so. Perhaps if it continues to get easier to come out earlier, gay boys and girls won't feel the need for such prudence. But there must always be room to experiment, question, change one's mind, especially when we're young. If that destabilises sexual identities – if it means some bisexuals are 'lifers' and others are just passing through – that's all the better as far as i'm concerned. Labels exist to help us understand ourselves, not to box us into someone else's idea of what we ought to be or do.

It's true, that might throw up a problem of intelligibility. How do i know if my date is a lifer or if they're taking the temperature? And here i'm afraid i'm going to tut-tut and tug my pearls. i worry that these dating profiles with their long checklists of do-and-don't are creating a sense of entitlement, a sense that other people should be wholly intelligible to me, so that i don't have to waste my extremely valuable time meeting them, because of course i have nothing to learn or to gain from such encounters. The tweet in the OP* reeks of this attitude. i dunno, i'm miles away from this and don't know how it works. But i'll always advocate for open minds and pleasant surprises.

*Scrolling down his feed, i see he also doesn't like the "twitter Left" or men who aren't slim. How on earth did you dig him up, Diable R?

Basically, more of a browser on Twitter than an actual user myself, and taking an interest in languages, I follow a Scottish guy in a similar vein, and he liked the tweet by one of his friends dissing the clown. Strangely, a number of left-leaning Irish political accounts I follow tend to be LGBT, so also piqued my interest for that reason.

[MsD]

It should be simple. If you're dating me, you have to be dating only me. Doesn't matter if the person you're cheating on me with is a man or a woman, you're still cheating, so you're out the door.

Right, that's that sorted.

Assuming that you know.

No, I’m not saying bisexual people are more inclined to cheat. I’m saying cheating is (pretty much by definition) kept hidden.

[pebblethefish]

Yes, but if the girl involved was straight or bi, it wouldn't make a difference, AFAIC

[MsD]

Here’s the difference for me, and I’m only talking about my own preference and experience, not projecting it onto all or any bisexual people.

Men cheated with me with other women because they *could* and *wanted to*, not because they *needed to*. It may be a complete myth that bisexual people *need* to have both sides satisfied but in my experience it was kind of used as an excuse and I was told I was “unromantic” for objecting and being jealous. So fuck that for a game of soldiers.

Happy to have bisexual friends and family but not going down that particular road again. My rules are only about my “entitlement” to my own choices.

To add, I had the extra trauma of finding an HIV counselling appointment card. Now obviously not every bisexual person (or MWHSWM) is going to put their partner at risk, but mine did so double-fuck that for a game of soldiers.