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    Boomers

    I put this up on Facebook but think it's something this forum would do a good job of kicking around and into better shape.




    I'm pretty much pulling this one out of my arse as I write so feel free to contradict but I've been thinking a bit about the Boomer generation, many, though by no means all of whom are fighting a rearguard action on various fronts, from politics, identity issues, to music, and to comedy. I've been as baffled as anyone as to why this most privileged of generations (NHS, welfare state, job security, affordable housing, EU membership) should, as if out of spite, seek to deny their offspring the opportunities they had.

    I'm talking at the upper end about people who wear jeans well into their 70s; the first generation to experience rock'n'roll, youth culture and have, understandably, clung to that feeling of youthfulness throughout their lives. This doesn't include my Dad. He was 21 when "Rock Around The Clock" happened - far too old by the standards of the 50s to partake in the mania. He is the last of a generation who forfeited their youth and all hankerings for that state when he was about 19.

    I think part of the bitterness they hanker is the bitterness of age. Not just age but a feeling that a contemporary, "woke" generation, on a series of pretexts, be it race, feminism, is seeking to erase or invalidate their own, different-times experiences. For them, it's insult to injury not only to realise they are in the winter of their years but to be told that the culture of their Spring and Summer, what they consider to be a liberal flowering, was addled with latent racism, sexism, that what they considered to be a vanguard of modern thought was still very unreconstructed in key ways. No one likes being browbeaten, especially by a bunch of kids who in childhood at least, never had it as hard as they did. (How this generation will fare in adulthood is another question, of course, but . . )

    I especially see it in comedy appreciation pages for programmes like Porridge, Steptoe, Dad's Army. I'm a member of these pages because I love these shows. Other members love them to but in their comments a lot of them can't resist barbed, wistful comments about how some of these shows' occasional non-PC moments "you couldn't get away with these days"; as if things were healthier when you could. There's a frustration, I suspect, that these shows aren't on mainstream TV any more, farmed out to channels like UK Gold and therefore they feel "cancelled". New comedy, with its more refined sensibilities and more naturalistic, even avant-garde approach alienates them, if they watch it for more than a few minutes at all.
    They take solace in grumbling. On the Porridge page, someone put up a post claiming, without evidence, that Netflix had dropped Porridge because of the racist quips at the expense of one of the black prisoners. Few, apart from Neil Kulkarni bothered to ask for a source for this story. For most of the respondents, it was an easy cue to grumble about snowflakes, and the mad, insane pace at which anti-racist forces were destroying all we once held dear.

    Again I'm not even so sure if these people were primarily motivated by racism; more a sense that a) their culture, their memories were being canned and b) affronted that despite the lack of racist bones in their bodies, there were some who felt that there was still further work to do in representation of POC on TV than what they themselves thought was satisfactory.

    I wonder if a cumulative sense of such resentment causes some people to harden, to take up reactionary attitudes they'd never entirely purged in their youth, their comfortable happy youth; that, in short, White Britain Was Great. White Britain Was Fun. We Were The Best. Well . . .

    #2
    I think you’re right.

    Insecurity manifesting through a defence of bygone era comedy makes for an odd hill to die on.

    Getting old sure is weird.

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      #3
      Originally posted by wingco View Post
      I especially see it in comedy appreciation pages for programmes like Porridge, Steptoe, Dad's Army. I'm a member of these pages because I love these shows. Other members love them to but in their comments a lot of them can't resist barbed, wistful comments about how some of these shows' occasional non-PC moments "you couldn't get away with these days"; as if things were healthier when you could. There's a frustration, I suspect, that these shows aren't on mainstream TV any more, farmed out to channels like UK Gold and therefore they feel "cancelled".
      Speaking as a card carrying early boomer ( class of '48) I gotta say that sounds more like my parents than me and most of my contemporary friends. We were much more into Python (and its pre and post iterations including naturally At Last the 1948 Show.)

      Originally posted by wingco View Post
      I wonder if a cumulative sense of such resentment causes some people to harden, to take up reactionary attitudes they'd never entirely purged in their youth, their comfortable happy youth; that, in short, White Britain Was Great. White Britain Was Fun. We Were The Best. Well . . .
      Again, though I know people my age who possibly do feel resentment, I detect much stronger feelings of despair at opportunities lost.

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        #4
        Maybe a sense of guilt...? They rebelled against a generation that made huge sacrifices and went through a lot and seeing today's youth rejecting their own achievements, they are reminded of themselves and how spoilt they were but that guilt manifests in lashing out, a sacralisation of WW2 and their parents generation rather than the introspection it warrants...

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          #5
          As a late one (59), a lot of my experience is the same as Amor's.

          There are also massive differences within the cohort, even those of similar origins. The people who have left NYC for places like the Villages in Florida have very different worldviews than their peers who stayed.

          But then pre-WWII NYC was notably more diverse than pre-WWII London.

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            #6
            I think a lot of Boomer issues can come down to lack of self-awareness. I don't think they know they're pulling up the drawbridge on free university education and the NHS and the healthy state pension they now have. Like so many Randian idiot children of wealthy parents, they think they earned everything they had through their own abilities and can't see that they might have been helped along the way.

            And I think the same is true of the cultural stuff. Because they (well, their generation - they just watched and listened) created something that was different to what they saw as the dull reactionary content of the previous generation, they aren't self-aware enough to think that what their generation created might also be flawed in its own way.

            It doesn't help that all our journalists and authors and politicians of the last few decades have been Boomers, who have in many ways reinforced the belief that what happened between 1956 and 1974 was really the only important cultural and political stuff. When you've been told for decades that your cultural touchstones were revolutionary and progressive, then being told that it's actually all pretty flawed might take a while to sink in.

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              #7
              Of course they know it. They voted for it. Repeatedly. If they feel bad they just value their house again.

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                #8
                For some reason this Tristram Hunt story feels it belongs here

                https://twitter.com/avoiding_bears/status/1311049808816242691?s=21

                Great post wingco I’ll try and respond properly tomorrow

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                  There are also massive differences within the cohort, even those of similar origins.
                  I think this is very true.

                  The members of my cohort I'm still in touch with either directly or indirectly — maybe a dozen or so — were all working or middle class kids from English provincial towns or cities. Most of us went to Secondary Modern Schools and then into factory work or applied post-secondary colleges. Looking back there's a division between what we did back then. Some made money quite quickly, they started companies (most of them) that pushed them rapidly towards the type of affluence our parents never really dreamed of. The rest us farted about until we were in our late twenties-early thirties, then we drifted into something to do that we could live with. Our parents weren't able to dream of doing that either. Eventually we all settled down and raised families. This is where the schisms between the two groups first became clear to me. Pretty much all the first lot sent their kids to private schools (I remember thinking "WTF... Why?" at the time.) Then other differences fell into place. They also never really traveled, they were too busy working. Sure, they went on increasingly exotic holidays, but they all still lived very close to where they grew up. Retrospectively I discovered that they lived kind of incestuous (in a broad if not literal sense) lives. They married each other. Employed each other. Had affairs within the group. And so on, most are still living a life that they framed for themselves fifty years ago. It's little wonder that they feel very insecure and uncomfortable now. Their worldview, is, was, and will likely continue to be extraordinarily narrow.

                  But I'd maintain they aren't everyone. Those of us in the second group sigh, but are prepared to accept what fate throws at us, which is something we learned to do back in the those fabulous sixties. And I do sometimes resent us all being lumped into a basket called "boomer" because by no means are we all the same in either attitude or aspiration, and we never have been.
                  Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 29-09-2020, 21:33.

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                    #10
                    Is there an upper age limit for wearing jeans?

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                      #11
                      I'm a little too young to be a boomer, and my parents are too old.
                      I can see that boomers aren't a monolithic culture, but I'm not convinced that there isn't a reasonably sized majority of them that are very similar in values and outlook, and AdeC or UA don't really fall into that group (as evidenced from their being on here, amongst other things).
                      Maybe it's different in the UK, but here I think the lack of any sort of safety net, combined with their getting older and frailer, wealth being used as the primary yardstick to judge a person's station in life and just plain fear has created a rather toxic set of values. I'm not sure if that is a very coherent argument.

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                        #12
                        Originally posted by S. aureus View Post
                        Is there an upper age limit for wearing jeans?
                        I don’t see why their should be.

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                          #13
                          Referring to the second paragraph in the OP.

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                            #14
                            Yeah, I see.

                            Jeans are just practical and durable. They are full egalitarian. They’ve been around for over 100 years. Why would we expect any generation to stop wearing them?

                            I don’t know if everyone (or anyone) should wear the really tight jeans. Those just look silly. They look silly on young people too, but we give young people a pass for being silly.

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                              #15
                              On the Porridge page, someone put up a post claiming, without evidence, that Netflix had dropped Porridge because of the racist quips at the expense of one of the black prisoners.
                              By the standards of the time (Mind Your Language etc) McLaren was a relatively positive portrayal of a non-white character.

                              Wider issue: yes, and I feel the same way about watching old football on YouTube. Every comments thread is a carbon copy (and what is a carbon copy? Shut up, kid).

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                                #16
                                I love the old shows like Porridge and Steptoe and Hancock and Dad's Army. I've loved a lot of both traditional and alt comedy since then. I think I can say the same for old and new literature, old and new music. I am nostalgic and write a whole load on the past but don't think it was either the best or worst of timea. Maybe, as Pete Shelley sang, I have nostalgia for an age yet to come.

                                I wear jeans unashamedly and if they appear tight to you then tough because my legs are the best part of my body. I have voted left in every election since I was 18. Maybe living abroad for the majority of my life has influenced me a lot but I'd suggest that my worldview and maturity process is little dIfferent to that found in many members here who have spent their lives predominantly in one country. But obviously the database is skewed towards a certain demographic.
                                Last edited by Sporting; 30-09-2020, 05:51.

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                                  #17
                                  I'm not sure if I have anything to say about the specific issue on PC/woke/comedy stuff, nor probably about the general issue. Present company excepted, I don't really know any boomers, as my parents' generation were the one before and I was born in 66, so I never really encountered any growing up, and I never became close to any once I became an adult

                                  But, I've never let lack of knowledge be a barrier to having an opinion before, so why start now?

                                  Anyway, there is something about entitlement I think, and the generation in which one's own parents grew up. Boomers' parents struggled and suffered. They were the ones who experienced as young adults the depression, and they were the ones who fought in the (second) war. Whereas boomers were born into a period of possibilities and freedom and expectation. And somehow from that emerged a sense of entitlement. My parents were children in the war, and there was something powerful about that experience. It was scary, but not really, because they were kids and you can't understand the sense of danger exactly. But there was a shared communal sense of family/community (I'm hesitant to overegg the "spirit of the blitz" thing, but I think there was something there). Living through the war and all it meant and the privations that followed for the 10 years afterwards, gave people a sense of gratitude and humility.

                                  I see it here too, but in a much more recent way. My wife's generation grew up under a lot of deprivation and struggle, but as young people. My wife still talks about how wonderful her childhood was, as her family and all the others made the best of what little they had. That sense of communal sharing and gratitude for the small things, in the midst of a really tough situation, is palpable. And the generation that follows her in Romania, people born say after 1983ish, who really don't remember the dictatorship and who were born into a time of possibility and freedom and expectation do very clearly have a sense of entitlement (that, like all of this is a sweeping generalisation, but again it seems tangible to me).

                                  So, I'm not quite sure what, if anything, this implies. Those who grew up in a time of possibility but whose parents suffered greatly have this sense of entitlement (which leads to what? I have no idea). Whereas those whose parents grew up in a difficult time but a time of - in some ways - happiness, don;t have the same thing? Again i;m not sure. I'm not sure oif my generation do not feel entitled either.

                                  TL;DR - I don't know anything but rambled a lot

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                                    #18
                                    Chris Dillow and Phil Burton-Cartledge both blogged recently about the structural position of pensioners as having made their bed and now needing desperately for things to not fuck up as they have a finite amount of cash which needs to see them through until they die.

                                    They're not socialised by workplaces or contact with a broad range of other people, and so increasingly get their hot takes from facebook, which they joined years ago to see pictures of their grandkids and now spend half they day on (I'd bet this age group features the heaviest users of FB) and because the business model of all these platforms is to push people towards more extreme content, the normal pensioner anxiety gets massively exacerbated by the decline of state support and austerity more generally, and that anxiety gets a soothing balm of anti-mask, brexiteer racism from somewhere on FB.

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                                      #19
                                      Good thread all

                                      NHH a young friend of mine (19) claims not to remember last time he used Facebook. It won't be long before people of that age won't have heard of it. But yes, I have a number of 80-ish relatives who are never off it.

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                                        #20
                                        Boomers are the 18-30s who voted in the majority for Thatcher in 1979.

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                                          #21
                                          Ah, so I'm a minority now...

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                                            #22
                                            The generation we're talking about blur with the Thatcher-voting pioneers don't they? A very significant statistic, I think, is the one on the votes of people aged 18-30 in the 1983 General Election. Thatcher won among that generation of young people very comfortably; and most of them - now in their late 50s and 60s - just probably haven't changed very much. Is this sort of where Sixties individualism and Eighties individualism merged?

                                            Also, of course, for a lot of people - possibly the majority - the Sixties didn't swing that much.

                                            As an anecdotal aside, observing the 'Corbyn surge' of new Labour post-2015 party members, two demographics that seemed to figure more than any others were people over 65 (radicals from the 70s and 80s returning to the battle) and people under 30.

                                            Which brings me to the other, tangential, point I made on Wingco's FB page: the absolute fucking state of my own generation, the 40s and 50-somethings, who happily larged it in the 'apolitical' but more affordable 90s, but have always been characterised by a certain small c conservatism and shallow liberalism, built - like so much else from the 90s - on a house of cards. We are a dreadful people.
                                            Last edited by E10 Rifle; 30-09-2020, 13:00.

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                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                              I don't really know any boomers, as my parents' generation were the one before and I was born in 66, so I never really encountered any growing up
                                              You very nearly are one. There was a second peak in the UK baby boom and it runs from 1945 to 1965. It's people who were 18-38 in 1983. It's very difficult to band those people together in a lot of ways, but economically and politically it really checks out. If you look at the demographic structure of the UK at the time, they were a massive bloc of voters, who have been targeted by both political parties to quite an alarming degree, in a wide variety of ways. The only difference between the Baby boom generation and the ones that followed it is opportunity. Criticisms of the ladder pulling up behaviour by boomer generation as a bloc, do need to be tempered with the knowledge, that every subsequent generation would have behaved the same way, because of the way that this works seems perfectly normal to you if you only view the world through the prism of what suits you at the moment. (People generally seem to lose interest in the provision of affordable rentable accommodation the split second they buy their first house, etc. For the typical person their interest in the proper provision of student accommodation as a basic human right extends from the moment they enter college, and ends the moment that they leave.)

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                                                #24
                                                18 in 1979 means born 1961, 30 in 1979 means born 1949. So all of the 18-30 Thatcher voters in 1979 were boomers, no? There are some older boomers and some younger ones too.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Moonlight Shadow View Post
                                                  Maybe a sense of guilt...? They rebelled against a generation that made huge sacrifices and went through a lot and seeing today's youth rejecting their own achievements, they are reminded of themselves and how spoilt they were but that guilt manifests in lashing out, a sacralisation of WW2 and their parents generation rather than the introspection it warrants...
                                                  I think that the prevalence of stuff like Commando Comics, which came out in 1961 and so would have been read by a lot of the cohort coming through just after the immediate post War children has a lot to answer for with regards to the fetishism of WW2.

                                                  All the Tommies were brave and bold, and all the Krauts and Japs were evil, cunning monsters largely faceless automatons to be swiftly dispatched, unless they were a particularly evil officer who was in for being killed in titanic hand to hand combat or similar.

                                                  The fact that the people who actually went through the war at the very sharp end of it, and here it tends to be those who saw the consequences of charging a machine gun nest shouting, "Die, Fritz!“ as opposed to the long tail, almost never, or simply never spoke about what it was like tends to be like seems to have been lost on those who worship the memory of the brave heroes.

                                                  Hell, not just the actual combatants, either, the long tail of the ground crews, the drivers etc etc, people just didn't talk about it. I only recently found out that my father's uncle, an ARP Warden, got mentioned twice in the London Gazette for bravery during the Blitz. The reason I know this is because my father only found the letters of commendation from Churchill to said uncle in his cousin's papers when he was going through them as attorney after she had to go into a nursing home due to her mental and physical incapacity. I doubt Churchill knew much about it, he was probably pissed off his nut by the time the latest sheaf of commendations was shoved under his nose.

                                                  Running around gunning down Jerry with sticks in the back garden is a bit different when Jerry's sticks shoot back...

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