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Steps towards fascism in the U.K.

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    #26
    This current climate in the UK resembles Turkey 10 or so years ago. Very frightening.

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      #27
      Another creeping thing we're going to see in policy administration is the use of apparently unchallengable computer based decision making as a means of pulling the wool over people's eyes as to true policy intent. The outrage over the "U-turn farce" of this year's exam results has actually clouded the truth of what was going on in the first place - a very deliberate and cynical attempt to protect or even improve the grades of private school kids in Tory areas, to the detriment of comp kids from poor areas. That wasn't an "unfortunate side effect of an algorithm". That was deliberately programmed into it in the hope no-one would notice, or complain, as a means of future social engineering. Watch for similar things going on in the 'postcode lottery' (it's not a lottery) of where NHS or police funding goes.
      Last edited by Rogin the Armchair fan; 29-08-2020, 10:32.

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        #28
        Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
        Another creeping thing we're going to see in policy administration is the use of apparently unchallengable computer based decision making as a means of pulling the wool over people's eyes as to true policy intent. The outrage over the "U-turn farce" of this year's exam results has actually clouded the truth of what was going on in the first place - a very deliberate and cynical attempt to protect or even improve the grades of private school kids in Tory areas, to the detriment of comp kids from poor areas. That wasn't an "unfortunate side effect of an algorithm". That was deliberately programmed into it in the hope no-one would notice, or complain, as a means of future social engineering. Watch for similar things going on in the 'postcode lottery' (it's not a lottery) of where NHS or police funding goes.
        Well said.

        Comment


          #29
          Originally posted by laverte View Post
          Regarding those early signs of fascism: almost all were as bad or worse under Thatcher. A lot of them were as bad under Blair. England has long been on the brink.

          i'd definitely add the identification of some sort of internal enemy intent on corrupting children: gays, trans ideology, sex educators, Tik Tok. But not the thousands of hours of adverts they watch. Oh no, that's for parents to manage.

          What worries me more is the concentration of power in the executive. Britain has no effective second parliamentary chamber; local government has been eviscerated; the checks provided by EU legislation are under threat; and now Johnson is going after the judiciary and civil service, which owe their 'independence' to a sort of gentleman's agreement that seems remarkably easy to tear up. And resistance from within the Conservative party seems to have been cowed. The 183 Tory MPs in the 2015 parliament who supported remaining in the EU have disappeared or fallen into line. Supposedly 'moderate' conservative voters dislike and distrust Johnson but turned out to vote for him anyway. Despite his bungled and murderous management of the Covid crisis, he still leads in the polls. Tory MPs growled over the Cummings affair but could not force Johnson's hand. Typically the Conservative party ends up defenestrating its own leader but with Johnson it feels as though nothing and no-one can stop him.

          More obviously fascistic is the defensive, inflated Tory rhetoric. In the last ten years the Tories and the old white English people who vote for them have won four general elections and three referendums, and lost nothing. But they act as though they're under siege from every possible angle. Johnson stands in front of schoolkids and tries to make out that "Is Harry Potter sexist?" is a talking point in education that the kids need to be protected from. That's the very least of it, but the image of him delivering this patronising, misleading lecture in a classroom stayed with me. Schoolchildren are going through so much at the moment, the prime minister visits and lectures them with what's basically a column in the Oldie. He never takes his eye off the audience that will keep him in power. It's unheimlich.
          I don't think that things were as bad or worse under Thatcher. yes around the Falklands there was a warlike rhetoric to be turned on the enemy within but although the lack of constitutional was not so shamelessly ready to tear up the gentleman's agreement nor to attack the entire Civil Service as Roger has pointed out, and openly bait the judiciary, both of which Johnson and Cummings are doing daily. Moreover the unions were stronger and local government was not so deeply destroyed, even if Thatcher dealt both heavy blows.

          Also Thatcher- whilst she was eminently dislikeable was not quite so contemptuous of - well more or less everything. There were things she believed in- She was a scientist and a Methodist with some knowledge of the world of work even if she rapidly married a racist millionaire. The alliance between the old guard and the new meant that there was some attention paid to the procedural niceties. I can't imagine Thatcher proroguing parliament, for example.

          This is a government of journalists, and Etonians- led by a journalist who was once considered to have gone too far by most of his peers. Lies and threats have been part of his modus operandi since the very beginning- it's not for nothing that Eddie Mair called him a nasty piece of work. Parliament is a distraction. The real power for Johnson has always been elsewhere- with his school and Oxford friends, and the press.

          The Conservative now lead a united right from the open fascists of Generation whatever through the thugs of Vote leave and the posh boys and race-baiters clustered around Johnson's Spectator. The Upper Class in alliance with the far right. For Thatcher corruption of the democratic process was an occasional side effect. For Johnson it's the aim,

          Thatcher occasionally blew a racist dogwhistle. Johnson has not only welcomed the extremists into the party, he kicked everyone else out. he combines utter contempt for every democratic norm and gentleman's agreement regarding the courts. Since the second world War Britain pretended to be a democracy, it's clear it isn't and never will be unless there is a written constitution, decent form of PR and a proper elected second chamber.

          Comment


            #30
            But, hey, at least he’s not Jeremy Corbyn, right?

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              #31
              These both seem apposite

              ​​​​​​- https://twitter.com/samantharhill/status/1299708548461535232?s=21

              https://twitter.com/annettedittert/status/1299613859263778816?s=21

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                #32
                Withdrawing accreditation from journalists you disagree with
                (see also Belarus)

                https://twitter.com/declassifieduk/status/1299044636611223552?s=21

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                  #33
                  Thanks for those insights, Rogin, discomforting though they are.

                  Nef, i'm with you on much of what you say, and your second paragraph 'defending' Thatcher is spot on. As you say, the 1980s were different times; nevertheless i see continuum in Johnson's project. It's worth underlining that Thatcher was operating during the cold war and the Troubles in Northern Ireland, which justified a lot of corner-cutting; thousands of civil servants were blacklisted for their supposed political affiliations, from supporters of Militant to "racial extremists", and monitored by secret services. There was a concerted campaign against "soft touch" prison sentencing which Thatcher exploited to put pressure on the judiciary. And Thatcher's Nero-like third term was probably the closest Britain has come to the Caesareque/Napoleonic strain of proto-fascism. (For fascism comes in many shades (of white).)

                  i still think Johnson is probably more in the Berlusconi-Sarkozy mould, where far-right policy and rhetoric are a cheap, lazy means to the good old conservative ends of plunder, corruption and hegemony over patronage. This used to be more efficiently achieved by positioning oneself towards the centre-right, but the bankruptcy of moderate Tory ideology means that new allies must be sought. In France this has led to a whole spectrum of parties and interests claiming the ground of neo-fascism, and a consequent splintering of the Right. The gravest danger comes from an alliance of these groups that brings together 'disruptors from the inside' and 'anti-system outsiders': say, a Sarkozy-Le Pen team. In the French electoral system that's still quite hard to achieve, and it's why i'm not sure PR is a good idea in England at the moment. Farage is as pure a fascist as can be, and any democratic system that allows him to enter government is one that signs its own death warrant.

                  Comment


                    #34
                    With one caveat - there have been two instances where Faragism has been allowed to enter British domestic politics through the electoral system, namely the London Assembly and Senedd Cymru, and in both circumstances they spent most of their spells on those bodies succumbing to infighting and splits, similar to what occurred in both the European Parliament and local authorities. Of course, the revival of European fascism, particularly with Fratelli d'Italia and the AfD give no cause for complacency, but Farage has been more successful in warping the philosophy of the Tory Party and normalising alt-right attitudes among the general public, than he would ever have effected in the Commons.

                    Comment


                      #35
                      Will respond to laverte’s thoughtful points later- but in the meantime this belongs here I think

                      https://twitter.com/pressfuturist/status/1299964334869827589?s=21

                      Comment


                        #36
                        As I think does this

                        https://twitter.com/lazebnic/status/1299835068781912064?s=21

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                          #37
                          Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
                          With one caveat - there have been two instances where Faragism has been allowed to enter British domestic politics through the electoral system, namely the London Assembly and Senedd Cymru, and in both circumstances they spent most of their spells on those bodies succumbing to infighting and splits,
                          Yes the UKIP / whatever party they are now Senedd members are now campaigning to abolish the Senedd, which would derail their own gravy train. But they have all proven themselves to be thick useless weirdos who can't cooperate with themselves let alone function in consensus politics.

                          Comment


                            #38
                            Originally posted by laverte View Post
                            Thanks for those insights, Rogin, discomforting though they are.

                            Nef, i'm with you on much of what you say, and your second paragraph 'defending' Thatcher is spot on. As you say, the 1980s were different times; nevertheless i see continuum in Johnson's project. It's worth underlining that Thatcher was operating during the cold war and the Troubles in Northern Ireland, which justified a lot of corner-cutting; thousands of civil servants were blacklisted for their supposed political affiliations, from supporters of Militant to "racial extremists", and monitored by secret services. There was a concerted campaign against "soft touch" prison sentencing which Thatcher exploited to put pressure on the judiciary. And Thatcher's Nero-like third term was probably the closest Britain has come to the Caesareque/Napoleonic strain of proto-fascism. (For fascism comes in many shades (of white).)

                            i still think Johnson is probably more in the Berlusconi-Sarkozy mould, where far-right policy and rhetoric are a cheap, lazy means to the good old conservative ends of plunder, corruption and hegemony over patronage. This used to be more efficiently achieved by positioning oneself towards the centre-right, but the bankruptcy of moderate Tory ideology means that new allies must be sought. In France this has led to a whole spectrum of parties and interests claiming the ground of neo-fascism, and a consequent splintering of the Right. The gravest danger comes from an alliance of these groups that brings together 'disruptors from the inside' and 'anti-system outsiders': say, a Sarkozy-Le Pen team. In the French electoral system that's still quite hard to achieve, and it's why i'm not sure PR is a good idea in England at the moment. Farage is as pure a fascist as can be, and any democratic system that allows him to enter government is one that signs its own death warrant.
                            Whilst I don't think Johnson is particularly ideological- he is probably best understood as Dominic Grieve described him "a pathological liar with no moral compass of any kind" I think it's probably irrelevant. He has come to power on a wave of alliance with the pro Brexit and far right inside the Conservative Party and the further right beyond. The "alliance of these groups that brings together 'disruptors from the inside' and 'anti-system outsiders'" has occurred.

                            Farage had far more power as the permanent guest on question time and BBC politics than he ever would have as a backbench MP.

                            That power was handed to him by Robbie Gibb, when he was BBC Politics editor - (he's now a co-owner of the Jewish Chronicle and setting up a Breitbart style TV Channel). Gibb was an important figure in the Federation of Conservative Students during its "Hang Mandela" years - it was eventually shut down for being too extreme by Norman Tebbit.

                            PR in the UK is essential. There is an anti hard Brexit and anti Tory Majority which has been nullified by the FPTP system.

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                              #39
                              As is the case in the US, there is also a strong kleptocratic element to Johnson's government.

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                                #40
                                Kleptocracy has been a fairly consistent element in the far right through the ages, to be fair/

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                                  #41
                                  This is true

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                                    #42
                                    this by Nesrine Malik is pretty good- the right have built an outrage machine to keep us in line

                                    https://twitter.com/davies_will/status/1300334186478399488?s=20

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                                      #43
                                      Murdoch well advanced in that process in Australia. State governments with Labor premiers proving the main obstacle.

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                                        #44
                                        Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

                                        Yes the UKIP / whatever party they are now Senedd members are now campaigning to abolish the Senedd, which would derail their own gravy train. But they have all proven themselves to be thick useless weirdos who can't cooperate with themselves let alone function in consensus politics.
                                        Would these Senedd members be Neil Hamilton

                                        And nobody else?

                                        Comment


                                          #45
                                          British Union of Fascists flags made a comeback at the demo in Trafalgar Square on Saturday.

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                                            #46
                                            That’s good. It will give all those crusaders against anti-semitism something to do after they’ve been twiddling their thumbs for the past six months.

                                            Comment


                                              #47
                                              Originally posted by Guy Profumo View Post

                                              Would these Senedd members be Neil Hamilton

                                              And nobody else?
                                              No, a few different groupings now - UKIP, the Brexit Party, Abolish the "Welsh Assembly", and one independent:

                                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senedd...lsh_Parliament

                                              Comment


                                                #48
                                                Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post
                                                British Union of Fascists flags made a comeback at the demo in Trafalgar Square on Saturday.
                                                they've been going a fair few years without very much traction even by the standards of BNP splinter groups.

                                                Comment


                                                  #49
                                                  Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post

                                                  they've been going a fair few years without very much traction even by the standards of BNP splinter groups.
                                                  Then again with Johnson as Prime Minister, Patel as Home Secretary they don't really need to.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #50
                                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                                    I don't think that things were as bad or worse under Thatcher. yes around the Falklands there was a warlike rhetoric to be turned on the enemy within but although the lack of constitutional was not so shamelessly ready to tear up the gentleman's agreement nor to attack the entire Civil Service as Roger has pointed out, and openly bait the judiciary, both of which Johnson and Cummings are doing daily. Moreover the unions were stronger and local government was not so deeply destroyed, even if Thatcher dealt both heavy blows.

                                                    Also Thatcher- whilst she was eminently dislikeable was not quite so contemptuous of - well more or less everything. There were things she believed in- She was a scientist and a Methodist with some knowledge of the world of work even if she rapidly married a racist millionaire. The alliance between the old guard and the new meant that there was some attention paid to the procedural niceties. I can't imagine Thatcher proroguing parliament, for example.
                                                    Given the death squads and the civilian massacres that have characterised the history of 20th century Britain, it's slightly ahistorical to suggest that we're moving towards uncharted territory or that previous regimes have had a fundamental respect for the constitution and rule of law.

                                                    I remember anti-war MPs being denounced as traitors in the popular press, egged on by a government intent on avoiding parliamentary scrutiny for their flimsy justifications for mass murder. At the same time, the government stoked up hatred towards "bogus" asylum seekers (most fleeing one of the many wars that government enthusiastically declared) while building a network of private prisons to house them. Meanwhile they brought in laws that led to thousands of people being imprisoned indefinitely for minor crimes (many of whom are still imprisoned today), and a raft of laws to criminalise homelessness and poverty in new and frankly byzantine ways (which of course successive governments have built on).

                                                    I don't think anyone would describe the Blair government as fascist, in part because this very much in keeping with the history of racism and authoritarianism that underpins the working of the British state. I think if you pick any period in the history of the UK, you can find this to a greater or lesser degree.

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