International comedy: A request

[wingco]

Another question; for those in a position to make the comparison. Clearly other countries have their own strands of comedy but do you think they generate as much as the UK, where it seems that comedy is so central that it's a part of our cultural identity, and, at times insidiously, an imperative in every day life. (The worst consequence of this being Johnson). Is comedy as central in other countries (Again, US, Australia. Canada excluded)?

[ursus arctos]

It's hard to say so from the outside, but comedy certainly is as central to other nations' cultural export identity as it is in the UK.

And my sense is that comedy programmes occupy less of the television landscape in Italy, France or Germany than they do in the UK (or at least they did when that landscape was easily defined among a relative handful of channels). As an example, the kind of lavishly produced "variety" shows featuring scantily-clad "showgirls" and geriatric crooners that disappeared from US screens in the 70s are still going gangbusters on Italian television (in fact, one of Berlusconi's "innovations" was to bring that aesthetic to news and sport programming).

[Eggchaser]

The writers of the last Mr Bean film said Tati was a big influence, although I'm sure if that was true of the earlier stuff that was just on telly.

Atkinson has always been a very physical comedian, both facially and with his body, hasn't he?

[Balderdasha]

In China, while there is plenty of comedy, I didn't get the feeling that it was anywhere near as central to the culture as it is in the UK, at least not in the Chongqing area around 2005-2007. TV broadcasting was mostly made up of news (and most of that was positive local stories versus terrible things happening in the rest of the world), dramatic soap operas, documentaries, travel shows, the start of reality TV singing competitions, sport, educational programmes, etc. I didn't see anything that could classify as a sitcom really, though the soap operas did have some comedic elements.

Also, every year the school ran a talent show and the entries were almost always quite serious. They included military displays from the young cadets, displays of prodigal musical talent, gymnastics displays, dance troops (I was once the centre piece of a "minority ethnic" dance display where I had to pretend to fall in love with the only male teacher in the English department, and we were then tragically separated in the good old tradition of star-crossed lovers. We practiced in the staffroom for weeks while the students all watched us and giggled). There were also short plays written and performed by the students which again would sometimes have comedic elements and sprinklings of slapstick, but were mostly dramatic / tragic.

In general, people in China can come across as quite direct, blunt, earnest and serious. Sarcasm is not widely used or appreciated. Teenagers would often give passionate speeches about their hopes and dreams for future careers, instead of the British tendency for teenagers to feign ambivalence or take the piss out of everything.

I think the central Chinese propaganda efforts may influence this as well . Propaganda is not seen as a negative thing. Every school has an office which is labelled as "the propaganda office" (often number 101), and public parks have display boards labelled as "the propaganda board". There are massive billboards with serious propaganda messages all across the country, whether they're about limiting family sizes or supporting anti-corruption efforts or increasing recycling. The prevalence of these serious central messages I think influences public discourse. I cannot, for example, imagine a Chinese official approving the type of jokey anti-litter campaign that my UK council is currently running, where the central message is "Don't be a tosser".

As always, bear in mind though that China is a huge country and traditions will vary across regions, and my knowledge base is over 10 years out of date.

[laverte]

Clearly other countries have their own strands of comedy but do you think they generate as much as the UK, where it seems that comedy is so central that it's a part of our cultural identity, and, at times insidiously, an imperative in every day life. (The worst consequence of this being Johnson). Is comedy as central in other countries?

In France, i'd say at a popular cultural level it's at least as important and prevalent, perhaps more so. Like i said there's a radio station devoted to comedy, and endless long-running tv and radio shows. Partly this is because it's cheap; partly because imported (dubbed) standup and sketch comedy work less well than drama (although American sitcoms run on a loop); and partly it's because comedy has a popular, home-grown, nation-building force that pop music might have in the UK. French pop music is more obviously derivative and dependent on anglophone sources: the largely superior originals are widely known, but the lyrics aren't comprehensible, and so something is missed.

Coluche could easily have been elected, if he'd lived. But he was funnier than Johnson, and smarter, and not just a wanker who knows some unusual words. Then again, the mass protest against the gay marriage bill in 2013 was fronted by the right-wing catholic comedian 'Frigide Barjot'. As in the US, comedians are increasingly providing the most effective opposition to the government, as they're the only people allowed more than ten seconds to talk about politics on tv.

At an individual level, though, being funny doesn't seem such a vital life skill as it does in the UK. A David Brent character, pathologically dependent on trying to make light, probably wouldn't be intelligible as an archetype. In fact, as i've implied, French comic characters are generally close to madness, to losing the plot, ill equipped to survive in a mad world; if we are glad that they remind us that it's the world, not us, which is absurd, which is 'funny', we're also relieved we know how to take that world as it is – that is, at arm's length yet somewhat seriously.

[ad hoc]

What do you mean with the "imperative in everyday life" thing? I don't get the impression that TV comedy is quite as big here as in the UK. But the prevalence of jokes in (especially male) conversation is very high (higher I'd say than in the UK). And judging by my Facebook wall the Hungarian (and slightly less so Romanian) standard is to put up lots of jokes (while I see very few English language jokes of that nature. Maybe just a bunch of puns)

[ad hoc]

And is Johnson alone?Italy has Beppe Grillo and the president of Ukraine is a comedian.

I guess Johnson is different as he's not a comedian but playing up a comic archetype

[Balderdasha]

Politics is also something where there's a big difference between the UK and China. Almost all the high level politicians in China have degrees or masters PhDs in something serious like engineering or chemistry or medicine. The standard route for a Chinese politician is to cut your teeth in one of the more remote regions of China managing a multi-billion yuan engineering project. In general, Chinese politicians are baffled by British political types who have degrees in politics and have never had real jobs. Chinese people don't really understand why those types of people would be considered competent enough to be in charge of a country. The leaders do try to seem slightly down to earth and will emphasise their hobbies and their family life, but the idea of someone like Johnson gaining power through buffoonery and "likeability" is completely alien.

[Balderdasha]

This is, of course, heavily influenced by the fact that Chinese politicians have no need to court popularity as nobody except members of the Communist party will ever be expected to vote for them.

[Moonlight Shadow]

I can't think of a single country I know well enough where a capacity for cracking a joke, not taking oneself too seriously, taking a joke in good humour is not part of the culture. Taking the piss, especially amongst males, is much more of a norm than an exception. I think where the UK might be different is the way tabloids push it further and widely, generally not in a very subtle way and how the higher end of comedy is generally of a higher calibre.

[San Bernardhinault]

Wingco said "excluding the US", but I would say that someone so obviously lacking any sense of humour as Donald Trump would be unelectable in Britain. America is much more fine with everything being totally unironic - whether in a rotten way like Trump or in an earnest and serious way like Bernie Sanders or in an upbeat positive optimistic way (although I can't think of good examples of that politically - perhaps Reagan?). In fact, Barack Obama might be almost an exception among senior US politicians in having a visible and demonstrated sense of humour. I don't recall much of one on show from Pence, HRC, Kaine, McCain, Palin, Romney, Biden, Paul Ryan, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, Al Gore, Dick Cheney...

[Amor de Cosmos]

Wingco said "excluding the US", but I would say that someone so obviously lacking any sense of humour as Donald Trump would be unelectable in Britain. America is much more fine with everything being totally unironic - whether in a rotten way like Trump or in an earnest and serious way like Bernie Sanders or in an upbeat positive optimistic way (although I can't think of good examples of that politically - perhaps Reagan?). In fact, Barack Obama might be almost an exception among senior US politicians in having a visible and demonstrated sense of humour. I don't recall much of one on show from Pence, HRC, Kaine, McCain, Palin, Romney, Biden, Paul Ryan, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, Al Gore, Dick Cheney...

I think US pols avoid all but the blandest humour because they're — probably rightly — afraid it'll be misinterpreted. Irony and satire are particularly to be avoided as they reek of snobbery and elitism which needs to be avoided at all costs. Privately I suspect quite a few of the people you list were very funny indeed.

[elguapo4]

Reagan's "We bomb Russia in 5 minutes " joke, and it's reaction, is a case in point as to why US politicians don't do humour

[Nefertiti2]

Another question; for those in a position to make the comparison. Clearly other countries have their own strands of comedy but do you think they generate as much as the UK, where it seems that comedy is so central that it's a part of our cultural identity, and, at times insidiously, an imperative in every day life. (The worst consequence of this being Johnson). Is comedy as central in other countries (Again, US, Australia. Canada excluded)?

I think the way humour is used in the UK is different - because in the UK anything can be said as long as it is said "as a joke" - or has an ironic element.
Look for example the way that someone can promote their book or film as long as they make an ironic reference to the fact that they are doing so,

Similarly the most repulsive ideas can be floated "as jokes" remember Piers Morgan's anti German World Cup racism which was defended as a "joke"- with the implication that those who object have no sense of humour. See also sexism and homophobia, and indeed the entire journalistic and TV career of Boris Johnson.

I don't think that humour is different in the UK but the way opinion is policed through humour is-as is the alliance between media and a virulently racist ruling class.

[Mr Delicieux]

Wingco said "excluding the US", but I would say that someone so obviously lacking any sense of humour as Donald Trump would be unelectable in Britain. America is much more fine with everything being totally unironic - whether in a rotten way like Trump or in an earnest and serious way like Bernie Sanders or in an upbeat positive optimistic way (although I can't think of good examples of that politically - perhaps Reagan?). In fact, Barack Obama might be almost an exception among senior US politicians in having a visible and demonstrated sense of humour. I don't recall much of one on show from Pence, HRC, Kaine, McCain, Palin, Romney, Biden, Paul Ryan, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, Al Gore, Dick Cheney...

Was Margaret Thatcher known for cracking out lols?

[San Bernardhinault]

Fair question, and actually Theresa May came to mind after I wrote that, too. Which makes me wonder if there's a gender thing at play here, but might also just mean that I'm wrong.

[Nefertiti2]

Thatcher famously was said to be unable to avoid double entendres without knowing what they meant. "every Prime Minister needs a Willie [WHitelaw} and
"I'm always on the job" were two that were on record. she had to have the Dead Parrot sketch explained to her and not clear if she ever understood it


Content warning Margaret thatcher

[Balderdasha]

In general, in the UK, humour is not seen as such an essential personality trait for women as it is for men. Famously, lonely hearts ads for men often asked for GSOH (good sense of humour) and not vice versa.

There is also a stereotype that paints women as "not funny" even if they are stand-up comedians, especially if they dare to make jokes related to their personal experiences which men, having not experienced the same things, don't find funny.

[Nocturnal Submission]

Was Margaret Thatcher known for cracking out lols?

Her SOH was famously lousy. I remember reading of one occasion that illustrates the point well. Jim Callaghan had made a pompous remark about seeing himself as like Moses leading the country to the Promised Land or something. In reference to that Thatcher's speech-writer had written a crack for her along the lines of "my only advice to the Prime Minister is to keep taking the tablets," which was a quite good pun. Maggie wasn't convinced by the phrasing though and changed "tablets" to "pills," the joke having flown completely over her head.

[Patrick Thistle]

Politics is also something where there's a big difference between the UK and China. Almost all the high level politicians in China have degrees or masters PhDs in something serious like engineering or chemistry or medicine. The standard route for a Chinese politician is to cut your teeth in one of the more remote regions of China managing a multi-billion yuan engineering project. In general, Chinese politicians are baffled by British political types who have degrees in politics and have never had real jobs. Chinese people don't really understand why those types of people would be considered competent enough to be in charge of a country. The leaders do try to seem slightly down to earth and will emphasise their hobbies and their family life, but the idea of someone like Johnson gaining power through buffoonery and "likeability" is completely alien.

That feels like a good thing.

[Lang Spoon]

Technocrats can be just as awful as PPE spoofers but. Robert fuckin McNamara for example.

[Balderdasha]

Another brief international anecdote. Once, while staying with my then boyfriend's Catholic family in rural Poland, I had the misfortune of watching Legally Blonde dubbed into Polish. Except that it wasn't dubbed the way English would be dubbed onto a foreign film. You could still hear the English, though at a very quiet volume, and then the Polish was dubbed a second later at a louder volume. I don't know if it was a one off, or if that's the way all Polish films are dubbed, but it was a very disconcerting experience.

According to a Polish colleague of mine, this is how all Polish films are dubbed.

[Balderdasha]

And I've just realised that ad hoc said the same thing on page 2.

[Belhaven]

I've seen the same in Russia and Latvia, too.

[WOM]

Does anyone actually prefer dubbing to subtitles?