Jesus as an historical figure

[Bored Of Education]

This isn't really a Dawkins vs the big guy with the beard (either God or Williams, depending on your mood). It is more for any historians.

I have heard suggestions that (a) Jesus did not exist or (b) he was a conflation of different people including women. Now, obviously, both of those suggestions are possible but is there really less evidence for the existence of a bloke called Jesus and his more earthly exploits (leaving aside miracles and whatnot) than contemporary-ish figures like Julius Caesar, Plato and Socrates (500 years earlier but you know what I mean).

While knowing the lack of contemporary manuscripts about Jesus, I know very little about the evidence of Plato and Socrates. As I say, I am not saying anything about the miracles but the historical figure. How much would modern historians regard as good sources compared to other figures? I know there are books on this but I haven't got the time and turn to the OTF communal brain

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

Yes, I love and have that and I gave a copy to my atheist brother as he likes it as well. I have no idea where you could put it. Depending on the size, on top of the stairs or above the mantelpiece.

Apparently, I do have an idea

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

The evidence for Plato and Socrates existing is about as incontrovertible as you can get for that period in history. Socrates is described by Xenophon (who definitely existed), treated satirically by Aristophanes (ditto), and then of course Plato, who founded an Academy and taught Aristotle (who also existed).

You could say the evidence for Socrates is flimsiest because he didn't write anything, but I think if you're being lampooned in a contemporary comedy (Aristophanes) entered in a competition, it's a safe bet that audiences' getting the joke depends pretty heavily on your existing. Then there are the very plausible circumstances of his trial and execution, given the political changes in Athens at the end of the P. War.

The documentary evidence for Jesus is flimsier, though he is mentioned in Tacitus, and it's difficult to conceive of why the gospels would emerge from thin air.

[Wyatt Earp]

Jesus as an historical figure

The sparseness of contemporary Roman references to Jesus is pretty striking, though. Tacitus' passage dates from over a century later, by which time the myth seemed to have formed, and the references in Josephus weren't much earlier, and at least one of them is widely thought in any case to be an interpolation. I incline to the view that there was a historical Jesus, but there might well not have been.

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

Morning/evening Bored.

Tacitus mentions Christ and Christians in his Annals of Imperial Rome, which whilst written a few years after the event are pretty reputable if biased (he was born around 56AD). He's talking about Nero's infamous fire. Hope you don't mind but it's a long-ish quote, for context:

But neither human resources, nor imperial munificence, nor appeasement of the gods, eliminated sinister suspicions that the fire had been instigated. To suppress this rumour, Nero fabricated scapegoats - and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberious' reign by the governor of Judaea, Pontius Pilatus. But in spite of this temporary setback the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judaea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital.

First, Nero had self-acknowledged Christians arrested. Then, on their information, large numbers of others were condemned - not so much for incendiarism as for their anti-social tendencies. Their deaths were made farcical. Dressed in wild animals' skins, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or crucified, or made into torches to be ignited after dark as substitutes for daylight. Nero provided his Gardens for the spectacle, and exhibited displays in the Circus, at which he mingled with the crowd - or stood in a chariot, dressed as a charioteer. Despite their guilt as Christians, and the ruthless punishment it deserved, the victims were pitied. For it was felt that they were being sacrificed for one man's brutality rather than in the national interest.

According to the footnote in my Penguin Classics copy, this is the only mention of Pontius Pilate's killing of Christ in pagan Latin.

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

Ah, great. This is rattling along as I hoped. Cheers for that.

I think if you're being lampooned in a contemporary comedy (Aristophanes) entered in a competition, it's a safe bet that audiences' getting the joke depends pretty heavily on your existing

That is a brilliant justification for someone existing.

The sparseness of contemporary Roman references to Jesus is pretty striking, though

Yes, this is what I was thinking of with regards difference with Roman and Greek figures but I do wonder whether this is an early example of the "History is written by the winners" theory.

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

Sorry Bruno and Why at Last - I was typing when your posts came up so I didn't see them first. I suppose the authenticity of Tacitus' record may be disputed but to me his mostly disdainful attitude towards the Christians (coming from a member of the ruling pagan classes) smacks of authenticity.

If one assumes it to be accurate, who knows how much impact Nero's actions had in indirectly strengthening Christianity through the creation of these martyrs, pitied despite their "depravity".

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

It's striking but not surprising that there aren't contemporary references to him, as the events of his life (as we 'know' them) didn't rise to the level of immediate import for the Romans (to say the least).

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

All the more amazing that within about 300 years of Tacitus, Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire.

[Gangster Octopus]

Jesus as an historical figure

300 years is a fuck of a long time.

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

Out of interest, is Tacitus regarded as a major source for the Emperors that wrote about as well?

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

Given what we 'know' about Constantine's conversion (which is very little) it's pretty amazing irrespective of the amount of time elapsed.

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

Bored of Education wrote:

Out of interest, is Tacitus regarded as a major source for the Emperors that wrote about as well?

Yes. The main one really for the Julian period, in that Suetonius (who wrote a Lives of the Twelve Caesars) is regarded as a gossip monger.

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

What is the Julian Period in this respect?

[Benjm]

Jesus as an historical figure

As gossip goes, The Twelve Caesars is a very good read though.

Josephus, writing in the first century AD, mentions Jesus but is another who is not considered to be entirely reliable.

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

Gangster Octopus wrote:

300 years is a fuck of a long time.

Well yeah, but imagine something which is little more than a cult today, taking over institutional religion by 2312.

Like Bieber fans.

[DCI Harry Batt]

Jesus as an historical figure

Tacitus talks about Christianity and repeats one of its myths. Is that evidence of a historical figure?

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

benjm wrote:

As gossip goes, The Twelve Caesars is a very good read though.

Great stuff - like Reveille for the classical world.

And of course Plutarch's Lives covered assorted Caesars but he was telling often quite embellished stories, and a considerable time after many of his subjects lived.

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

Bored of Education wrote:

What is the Julian Period in this respect?

Sorry, that's not technically the right label (Julian 'period' is a chronological system) but I was referring to the emperors related to Julius Caesar - Augustus through Nero (d. A.D. 68).

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

Gangster Octopus wrote:
300 years is a fuck of a long time.

Well yeah, but imagine something which is little more than a cult today, taking over institutional religion by 2312.

Like Bieber fans.

or Jedi (in 2277 obviously)

[Bruno]

Jesus as an historical figure

TonTon wrote:

Tacitus talks about Christianity and repeats one of its myths. Is that evidence of a historical figure?

Kind of, yeah. Mainly it's valued as evidence from outside of (and indifferent to) the tradition itself, as classical historians rely on a great deal of such triangulation for establishing relative authenticity (and it's all relative).

[Disco Child Ballads]

Jesus as an historical figure

St Paul's earliest letters are considered to be written some time around 50AD. This seems too soon after Jesus' supposed death for an entirely mythical Jesus to emerge.

[Sits]

Jesus as an historical figure

As has already been said, Suetonius was a gossip-monger but valuable nonetheless. His life ran roughly 15 years later than Tacitus' and it looks quite likely that his tiny mention of Christians (in his Nero) was a precis from Tacitus. Again the disparaging tone, which personally I take as a sign of authenticity in the subject:

Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief;

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

So the difference between the non-contemporaneous accounts by Tacitus about Jesus and the Emperors is what? More corroboration by others of the latter?

Tacitus and Josephus could possibly have been in Roma at the same time, couldn't they?

St Paul's earliest letters are considered to be written some time around 50AD. This seems too soon after Jesus' supposed death for an entirely mythical Jesus to emerge.

I always assumed that these were viewed as propaganda or myth-making but I agree that it does seem a rather large and complex myth to make up from scratch in 20 years which then takes such hold

[Bored Of Education]

Jesus as an historical figure

Not completely from scratch, I appreciate. There are a fair amount of theories that pinpoint earlier myths and legends that the story of Jesus could be based on, aren't there?