Statues to racists and slaveowners

[Duncan Gardner]

I'm Turkish, good as. Spent my first 2 years in Ankara after arriving at 9 weeks old. I was due to be born there, but after pre-natal complications my mother was advised to return to Belfast. The maternity clinic in Ankara doubled as the American Consulate, so I'd have been eligible for them too

My parents' closest friends over there were a Scottish couple, Kitty and Archie. He was a fierce and lifelong Scottish Nationalist. Their daughter Heather was my babysitter and godmother. Years later she married David, who had been at school with future Chelsea star Peter Houseman

I'd best stop now before we get on to the story about Dad and Archie's trip to Istanbul for the Fenerbahce- Linfield European Cup game

[pebblethefish]

It’s also highly unlikely that he slayed a dragon.

Well, how did they die out then?

[ChrisJ]

My friend's point was that it's clearly well meaning to say "St George was Turkish" and it's clearly targeted at British Gammons. But by doing so you're reinforcing the Turkish equivalent of gammons. You're backing up a (different) imperialist narrative even if your intentions were good.

If you want to piss off gammons, you might be better off with "St George was Asian"

Yeah, soz I think we've talked past each other a bit and I wasn't clear. Your friend is right, I was agreeing.

I was just adding the thought that had only just occurred to me that using it was also effectively buying into the idea that "Turkish" is some kind of insult.

[ad hoc]

It's not really "backing up an imperialist narrative" to say he was Turkish. It would be if you said he was Roman, since that's the empire he was born into, and while he was born in what is now Turkey, there was no such thing as "Turkey" then anyway.

[Antepli Ejderha]

Turkish is definitely being used as an insult or provocation.

Remember the Brexit posters and 80 million Turks joining the EU and by implication moving to the UK.

[tuckwat]

Remember England v Turkey at the Stadium of Light?

[Simon G]

I think it's clear Turkish is the put down - when I went on a coach to England v Macedonia, on what was easily the worst coach trip I've ever been on, the bellends leading the singing were coming out with the classics. 10 German Bombers, Keep Saint George in my heart and, arguably the most prominent - "I'd rather be a P**i than a Turk". I distinctly remember texting my then girlfriend that I was tempted to point out that St George was from what is now a part of Turkey, but I chickened out of it and just turned my personal stereo up.

[Felicity, I guess so]

Remember England v Turkey at the Stadium of Light?

Sadly all too well- we were sent home from work at lunchtime and I had to walk a gauntlet of Nazis putting stickers on everyone to get into the station

[Antepli Ejderha]

Remember England v Turkey at the Stadium of Light?

With the chant that Simon G mentions

We're a deeply racist country with no clear education policy designed to confront our past.

Political correctness sadly only suppressed all of those feelings and instincts which Farage et al tapped into and Johnson has clearly endorsed.

However the Labour Party introduced so much with their immigration bills and started the hostile culture.

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

I think it's clear Turkish is the put down - when I went on a coach to England v Macedonia, on what was easily the worst coach trip I've ever been on, the bellends leading the singing were coming out with the classics. 10 German Bombers, Keep Saint George in my heart and, arguably the most prominent - "I'd rather be a P**i than a Turk". I distinctly remember texting my then girlfriend that I was tempted to point out that St George was from what is now a part of Turkey, but I chickened out of it and just turned my personal stereo up.

It's irrelevant really if St George was "from [what is now] Turkey". The point is he had absolutely, zero, fuck all to do with England. There wasn't even a country called England until about 600 years after he died.

[Hot Pepsi]

Well, how did they die out then?

Virus

[super furry dice]

I think it's clear Turkish is the put down - when I went on a coach to England v Macedonia, on what was easily the worst coach trip I've ever been on, the bellends leading the singing were coming out with the classics. 10 German Bombers, Keep Saint George in my heart and, arguably the most prominent - "I'd rather be a P**i than a Turk". I distinctly remember texting my then girlfriend that I was tempted to point out that St George was from what is now a part of Turkey, but I chickened out of it and just turned my personal stereo up.

Empathy. I did a fair few England away in the mid-late 90s and the older me would never have tolerated staying silent on hearing them sing the songs you've described as they pretty much got sung on all the coach trips i went on with England. The exception was to France 98 when as I was spending most of that year in Starcross (its near Exeter), i went to that on a coach comprising mainly of Torquay fans but there were a few from Argyle and Exeter as well. For whatever reason, nobody went down that route and hell, there was so much love we all grouped together when a load of locals tried to attack us at the hotel we were staying at near Lens. West Country harmony in rare action.

I stopped following England in the early 00s and the only time i've missed it was when we played Croatia in the semi-final. It was a largely numbing experience as I'm not particularly patriotic and even on the football front, seeing England win or lose never brought the joy or despair that watching Argyle did. I felt cheated on the emotional side. Its far more fun doing random countries these days and its allowed me to visit all of the UEFA55 aggro free, and at a cheaper cost than it would've been following England, and league footbal is better everywhere (just as it is here).

Anyway i've digressed, the ring leader for the counter-rally has spoken, and his scaffolding company is taking a hammering on google reviews as a result - turns out his company is based in Bristol (by a matter of metres!) but given many of those who turned up don't live within the city boundary they can **** off out of it as its not their business (of course i recognise people's rights to have an opinion but those singing England songs seem the type who live in the space of "its our country mate" so I'm gonna play the "its my city mate" line back at them!). Interview here: https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/b...lstons-4225942

And on the new statue, I'll hopefully have time to wonder in and see it this week but in truth I expect it to be removed and it should be tbh, I agree with its sentiment but I don't really want to see that space become a battleground as I'm pretty sure there'll be some who seek to remove it as "revenge" for Colston (which of course I'm glad is gone and as someone posted upthread, so is the organisation that had been the one most blocking its removal - they finally got with the mood of the majority of the city).

[Cal Alamein]

ABQ gets in the act trying to take down a statue of a murderous Spanish Conquistador. Militia asshole shoots protester.

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news...61136/?cat=500

[Diable Rouge]

https://twitter.com/CamillaTominey/status/1273325946284752897

[Nefertiti2]

Yee Hah

[Nefertiti2]

Meanwhile in Glasgow

https://twitter.com/ewangibbs/status/1273314180028825614?s=21

[Nefertiti2]

And that picture, remember?

https://twitter.com/DrAnneMurphy/status/1273354300723539973?s=20

[Nefertiti2]

How vile the fascists are

https://twitter.com/profdanhicks/status/1273520364761513987?s=20

[elguapo4]

I would say it takes a certain amount of cuntitude to actually search that out, was it well known?

[super furry dice]

I would say it takes a certain amount of cuntitude to actually search that out, was it well known?

Reasonably well known though not that many of us who live in Bristol could've pin pointed it like that and given the grave is located on the outskirts of the city, it wasn't one that was really on the radar. The slave owner (if that is the right term?) paid for the gravestone.

What's ominous is the message left by the ****[s] who did it: "Look what you made me do, Stop protesting. Leave Elliott's* grave alone. Put Colston's statue back or things will really hot up".

*Elliott being a likely reference to GH Elliott the music hall performer known as the Chocolate Coloured c**n.

As most in these forum parts know, this is what happens when you let the politics of a country move as far to the right as the UK has.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

My friend's point was that it's clearly well meaning to say "St George was Turkish" and it's clearly targeted at British Gammons. But by doing so you're reinforcing the Turkish equivalent of gammons. You're backing up a (different) imperialist narrative even if your intentions were good.

If you want to piss off gammons, you might be better off with "St George was Asian"

Calling a (supposed) Cappodocian Greek who lived before the modern nation of Turkey and any of the predecessor Turkish states existed - whose descendants were subject to a genocide as part of the founding of modern Turkey may not be backing up an imperialist narrative but it should certainly give pause for thought, rather than be something flung about by progressives.

Just as it would be to refer to St George as Israeli on the basis that the cult of St George emanated from Lydda.

Rather than any arguments about the historicity of St George (which is contested), it's better to understand the cult of St George in England.

It was taken back to England by soldiers who fought in the Ninth Crusade (also known as Lord Edward's Crusade) in which the future Edward I, Edward's campaign failed in most of its goals and he and his men were largely confined to the port city of Acre and beyond a few isolated civilian massacres achieved very little in the year they spent in the Holy Land.

It's thought that the warrior saint fighting for Christendom appealed to soldiers who were largely deprived of the opportunity to do the same.

Which is to say that hordes of drunk english men taking over mediterranean port and engaging in random acts of racist and sectarian violence is entirely within the spirit and tradition of the cult of St George.

[Hot Pepsi]

It’s not as if these guys’ racism wasn’t well-known for 50 years.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...ffith-comments

[Rogin the Armchair fan]

Calling a (supposed) Cappodocian Greek who lived before the modern nation of Turkey and any of the predecessor Turkish states existed - whose descendants were subject to a genocide as part of the founding of modern Turkey may not be backing up an imperialist narrative but it should certainly give pause for thought, rather than be something flung about by progressives.

Just as it would be to refer to St George as Israeli on the basis that the cult of St George emanated from Lydda.

Rather than any arguments about the historicity of St George (which is contested), it's better to understand the cult of St George in England.

It was taken back to England by soldiers who fought in the Ninth Crusade (also known as Lord Edward's Crusade) in which the future Edward I, Edward's campaign failed in most of its goals and he and his men were largely confined to the port city of Acre and beyond a few isolated civilian massacres achieved very little in the year they spent in the Holy Land.

It's thought that the warrior saint fighting for Christendom appealed to soldiers who were largely deprived of the opportunity to do the same.

Which is to say that hordes of drunk english men taking over mediterranean port and engaging in random acts of racist and sectarian violence is entirely within the spirit and tradition of the cult of St George.

Interesting. And who DID Edward I eventually conquer? Did it, perhaps, have anything to do with Dragons?

[Satchmo Distel]

The Turks were still living in Central Asia in St George's time. Didn't take over Anatolia until the 11th century.

[Nefertiti2]

It looks as though thanks to the activists Drawing attention to historic links with Slavery Greene King
are going to be paying reparations