Starmer doing his best to respond to that “ human rights lawyer” slur the Tories were using.
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Originally posted by TonTon View PostThere's no "has to". There's a convention. Keith can do what he likes here, and has chosen to do this.
"They must support the Government in any divisions in the House. No PPS who votes against the Government in a division can retain their position."
Presumably, when in opposition, 'government' becomes 'party position.'
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Originally posted by TonTon View PostWikipedia describes a convention about government, yes. And Labour has generally followed the same or similar convention when in opposition, recently.
Nothing 'bout it being a convention. It seems PPS are covered by the same rules as frontbenchers and if the leader (or in the case of a PPS, the minister / shadow) can't rely on them, they have to step down.
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"There are no fixed consequences for disobeying the whip, with the penalties varying depending on the type of whip and the individual and political circumstances."
https://www.instituteforgovernment.o...and-free-votes
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- Jan 2012
- 3291
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
That convention had always had leeway when it comes to matters of conscience. Whittome stated that this was one for her. Starmer felt that it wasn't.
On the poll upthread: this is from the same pollster and newspaper that splashed when Labour drew level a month ago. Then didn't report it at all a fortnight ago when they dropped back 3 points. Fwiw, it's also the same duo that gave us fortnightly updates on how the country was going Remain from 2018-19, and that turned out well. Just for context.
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Originally posted by TonTon View PostI give in. It's not a very interesting point anyway, and it's a silly waste of everyone's time for me to try to persuade anyone.
I just don't see this as being quite the issue it initially appeared to be.
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It was his decision to impose a whip on the issue of giving British soldiers term limits for punishment for war crimes in response to a campaign from the media, egged on by the far right. You may feel that he is making the Labour Party more electable, I have concerns about this because- There shouldn't be term limits for war crimes
- We all know how this is going to be used
- He is a Human rights lawyer, who made his lawyer activism a key part of his bid for the Labour leadership
- He is using this to force young and talented left women out of the Shadow Cabinet
- There shouldn't be term limits for war crimes
- Likes 2
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- Jan 2012
- 3291
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
Originally posted by Lurgee View Post
It is important, though. If it is more of a convention and less of a rule, then the 'resignation' is less defensible. I know the British constitution and parliamentary rules are arcane and not always codified; but it seems (based on the document I linked) this is a Thing That Must Be. If anyone can demonstrate otherwise, I'll happily accept it is so and DENOUNCE Starmer in the harshest terms.
I just don't see this as being quite the issue it initially appeared to be.
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- Mar 2008
- 18786
- Revelling In The Hole
- England, Chelsea and Tooting and Mitcham. And Surrey CCC. And Wimbledon Dons Speedway (RIP)
- Nairn's Cheese Oatcake
Originally posted by johnr View PostThat convention had always had leeway when it comes to matters of conscience. Whittome stated that this was one for her. Starmer felt that it wasn't.
On the poll upthread: this is from the same pollster and newspaper that splashed when Labour drew level a month ago. Then didn't report it at all a fortnight ago when they dropped back 3 points. Fwiw, it's also the same duo that gave us fortnightly updates on how the country was going Remain from 2018-19, and that turned out well. Just for context.
Given the scheduled date of the next GE, the current government's majority, the pandemic and it's associated financial ramifications and Brexit, I can barely think of a time when such polls were more irrelevant.
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It's true that currently Starmer's more likely to win a bigger majority in Putney than a general election across the UK, but this just flags up the pigheaded idiocy of elements on both the Labour right and Labour left who don't think electoral reform is an important issue.
As my man Jez Gilbert says here, which is completely true:
https://twitter.com/jemgilbert/status/1308348178786385920
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- Mar 2008
- 20753
- Black Country Green Belt
- Crusaders FC, Norn Iron, not forgetting Serendib
- Blueberry vodka Jaffa cake on marzipan base
@E10- Aye. Labour's base isn't the grandkids of Cannock coalminers or Bromwich boilermakers (despite KS visiting last week). Current reality is more GRUB-by: graduates, renters, unionised, BAME. All of them combined managed only 34% in England in the GE
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I do think there's a natural base beyond that 34% and that it might include *some* of yer grandkids of Cannock coalminers etc, but yeah, there's lots of wilful misreading and mythologising of the 'red wall' places in the north and Midlands. Only a matter of time before they start getting invoked as The Plain People of England in the Flann O'Brien style.
Anyone would think that there'd never been northern working-class Tories before Corbyn, when places like Liverpool actually had Tory MPs and Tory councils in the postwar period
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- Mar 2008
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- An oasis in the middle of Somerset
- Bath City FC; Porthcawl RFC;Wales in most things.
- Fig roll - deal with it.
Originally posted by Snake Plissken View PostThat last bit is so "Now is not the time to talk about gun control".
That's not to let him off the hook for not actually attacking Johnson and reversing policy promises.
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- Jan 2012
- 3291
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
Climate change doesn't really tie in with the electoral cycle in the UK.
Last GE, Labour were pilloried for coming up with too many policies 'pulled out of a hat'. You have to build a consensus over time, years, for any policy in order for the populace to shift, gradually. It's how the Brexiteers got their way.
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- Mar 2008
- 29883
- An oasis in the middle of Somerset
- Bath City FC; Porthcawl RFC;Wales in most things.
- Fig roll - deal with it.
I am not sure whether I am arguing with you or against now but doing the Britain First stuff is exactly the sort of broad brush stuff that the Brexiteers started off (and arguably went all the way through) with.
Also, it is not only the electoral cycle but, as I say, Brexit and Covid that is going on and, at least with the latter, no-one really knows what the fall out is going to look like.
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- Jan 2012
- 3291
- Worthing
- The Hammers, until Mark Noble goes.(he's still there, sort of)
- Garibaldi, dipped in tea.
That's fair enough. I just think that you've got to lay out your basic programme - what you believe in, where you start from - at the beginning, then build on it as circumstances shift. There are narratives out there of how we can build back through/after Covid. It can't do any harm to lay some of your core beliefs on the line, otherwise people will quickly think that you have none. 'Captain Hindsight' was a cheap jibe from Johnson, but fwiw I've already seen it sticking around on social media.
He's losing parts of what could be part of Labour's constituency - young people, renters, climate change campaigners, Black Lives Matter - cos he won't make a stand. Of course, he'll be attracting others I guess who are against those things (or at least, that must be the strategy). Not sure that's the right thing to be doing, though.
An example https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-red-wall-tory
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- Mar 2008
- 20753
- Black Country Green Belt
- Crusaders FC, Norn Iron, not forgetting Serendib
- Blueberry vodka Jaffa cake on marzipan base
johnr I'm fairly sure that from Labour/ the Oppo generally's POV it's the wrong thing.
Starmer seems already to have accepted that Scotland is lost electorally. The next step must be some form of co-operative strategy to attack the Tories in Southern England- scale alone makes that more important than trying to balance getting back lost kippers against holding onto what I called the GRUB generation above.
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Wasn't quite sure where to put this Owen Hatherley piece - on cities, towns, planning and the new Labour/Tory divide - so I'll stick it here. Well worth a read.
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i really like owen hatherley- and that's a great piece- thanks E10.
I probably wouldn't have found it otherwise. shunning the Guardian as I doLast edited by Nefertiti2; 30-09-2020, 19:06.
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