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Sir Keir Starmer - Labour Party Leader

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    here is an article from the Times of Israel in 2013

    The mission to Israel is a tremendous opportunity for American law enforcement professionals to learn from their counterparts in the Middle East, draw from the latest developments in terrorism prevention and bring these methods back home to implement in their communities,” she said in a statement.

    Comment


      I've asked Labour MPs and local Councillors who have agreed with RLB being sacked, such as Stella Creasy; I've asked commentators such as Rafael Behr, and press and media folk who are closely covering the story; I've asked people on BTL comment threads - 'why has Rachel Reeves' eulogising of Nancy Astor without even mentioning her antisemitism and Nazi-sympathising not seen as worthy of censure by Starmer?'. And it's a bit weird - not one of them has even bothered responding, even though they often respond to other points/questions.

      Now, I'm a nobody, and maybe not worthy of reply - but it doesn't scream 'confronting antisemitism in all its forms' to me; rather, it reeks of factionalism. For what it's worth (and I don't, for the moment, agree with their move) I know 3 people who have resigned from Labour over this - two out of those three I wouldn't say are yer raving Corbyn supporters, and one is saying that they won't even vote Labour in future. I've seen a few similar online. This won't get the 'thousands leave Labour' scare headlines that Corbyn got - indeed, I'd guess that there'll be broad welcoming of an exodus in the media generally - but it doesn't bode well for the sort of coalition that Starmer has himself said he needs to hold together.

      Comment


        Yes, I've seen a number of friends say they are leaving Labour over this. Obviously saying so on social media and doing it are different things but there is a lot of anger and unhappiness, especially among the section of Labour members who are concerned about Palestinian human rights. It feels like again the Palestinians have been sold out

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          it's clearly a very useful issue since it does two things which the likes of Creasy and Behr are in favour of:

          1) the focus on Israel is about how it's the victim of terrible antisemitism and not that it trains the Us police and is in the process of annexing large swathes of the Occupied Territories whilst denying civil rights to its non-Jewish inhabitants. (they aren't citizens.) This is clearly racist apartheid. Calling it this will pronbably get you expelled from the Labour Party

          2) They get rid of the only Corbyn supporter in the shadow Cabinet.

          Comment


            I've seen two facebook posts about it (ignoring OTF posters I'm friends with)

            One from someone who I don't know well who hardly ever posts anything political but who I've always thought of as small c conservative who said something along the lines of "nice one, if only Boris was so quick to get rid of his bad apples" and one from someone who is a committed left wing Labour person who regularly makes political posts who has posted that they have left the party and joined the Greens.

            So, I guess on a purely electoral calculation, Starmer is hoping that there are more of type A than type B. In terms of party management, if he is trying to force the left out then it works perfectly, if people were going to leave he'd much rather it was over alleged anti-semitism rather than policy differences. On the other hand, if he is wanting to keep the left on board then he's going to need to do something substantial soon.

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              One aside: I post things about Palestine and Palestinians at least 3 times a week on FB. Nothing. No response. Nobody bats an eye. Palestinians being killed/displaced/evicted/maimed/tortured/kidnapped/brutalised? Meh.

              I posted something about this and - bang - loads of interaction (different viewpoints, respectful and interesting, and disagreements non conflictual. Positive, actually). But it's amazing how much discussion of Israel and anti-semitism and the nuances of racism and perception get people fired up.

              None of that is problematic as such. People engage with what they engage with. But then one of the things people who advocate for Palestinian human rights are constantly told is to not bring the subject up in discussions of anti-semitism. I get this. It's right. It's important. But then I also have this sense that if I don't bring it up, nobody will ever notice, that there is this population of people who are being brutally oppressed and murdered.

              Comment


                agreed. I've seen a couple of friends who are certainly not right wing who have posted vaguely critical of Peake/Long Bailey- some attracting some repulsive comments from their right-wing friends

                One person on facebook points out that Israeli army/border police do use the kneeling chokehold technique frequently in the West Bank and Wast Jerusalem and may well have trained American police to use it, but the specific tactic is less important that the fact that the training regularly occurs using the techniques of the repressive regime which is most regularly in action.

                Interestingly that person is an Israeli.

                even comparatively conservative Israelis are more ready to speak the truth about what Israel is up to than a Labour Mp in the UK

                https://twitter.com/DanielSeidemann/status/1276523529668890624?s=20

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                  It is both quite accurate and terribly sad that Seidemann expects those positions to "piss off everyone"
                  Last edited by ursus arctos; 26-06-2020, 15:01.

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                    Don't ever lobby Stella Creasy about anything. It will end with her deliberately misunderstanding your question and turning it into a ferocious interrogation of you. The role of her constituents is to be accountable to her.

                    Comment


                      I'm not her constituent, and would be happy for her to interrogate me, cos I'm sure of my ground. She won't though, despite saying that we must 'recognise that the fight against antisemitism takes many forms and requires persistence.. It's the sheer fucking gall and dishonesty that grates, and turns reasonably mild-mannered souls like me to anger.

                      Comment


                        An article from the Jewish Virtual Library about the extent of training of US Police by the various Israeli forces civil and military.

                        Many Jews opposed Zionism because they thought there could be a dangerous alliance between Zionists and antisemites. If there is a Jewish homeland that's where the Jews belong.

                        The alliance between Israel, Trump (many antisemitic remarks, said there were good people on both sides of an openly antisemitic White nationalist demonstration ) Johnson (author of antisemitic novel) Orb?n (increasingly antisemitic rhetoric and laws) seems to bear out this theory

                        Comment


                          Wearily, after seeing some "Go, Kier" type posts on Facebook, I turned to this thread expecting possibly the same. However, I can't argue with most of what has been put on it. Cheers, the OTF hive mind.

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                            Some comments from the Jewish Left- part of a noble tradition now dismissed by both the Board of Deputies and the Labour Party- a surprisingly high number of those expelled by the Labour Party for "antisemitism" have been Jewish.



                            https://twitter.com/chadgadya/status/1276159529093398529?s=20

                            (To conflate Jews and Israel is antisemitic under the IHRA guidelines. unless it's done by the Board of Deputies, Stephen Pollard, Simon Sebag-Montefirore etc. etc.)

                            https://twitter.com/oyveyizqueer/status/1276197514669174784?s=20

                            (no-one ever talks about Palestine)

                            https://twitter.com/jewdas/status/1276543798621937664?s=20

                            (antisemitism is only ever an issue for the left)

                            Comment


                              Meanwhile here's a thread that approachs this with nuance and understanding.


                              https://twitter.com/Sara_Rose_G/stat...74951440158720

                              Oh and bye the way if you want to die on a hill for Long-Bailey that's fine by me but when the EHRC publish their report the shit will hit the fan.

                              Comment


                                You’re not very good at engaging with alternative points of view are you? A number of people (including me) have responded to the previous tweets you posted.

                                You haven't had the courtesy to respond to any of the points raised. you've just posted a link to a thread that you claim "approachs this with nuance and understanding"

                                we could actually go through the various non-sequiturs, assertions, and strawmen point by point if that's how you'd like to spend the evening of the Sabbath.

                                what exactly do you mean by claiming that " when the EHRC publish their report the shit will hit the fan." what will happen that hasn't happened already, do you think?

                                Do you really believe the Labour Party, which had. Jewish leader from 2010 to 2015 is antisemitic? Do you believe it's more antisemitic now than it was when Alistair Campbell was commissioning adverts that depicted (Jewish) Michael Howard as Fagin and him and his (Jewish) Shadow Chancellor as pigs?

                                What do you believe about the Israeli influence in UK politics?

                                (you might like to remember Priti Patel's "holiday" with the then chair of Conservative Friends of Israel, Stewart Polak before answering)


                                Last edited by Nefertiti2; 26-06-2020, 17:38.

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                                  I would say you are extremely ignorant about Israel and about antisemitism, which is why you lap this stuff up.

                                  I have many relatives in Israel and I’ve suffered anti-Semitism all my life. That’s why I don’t fall for this bullshit.

                                  I don't think of it as a way to score points in an argument, or something to weaponise- (for instance by not tackling cases of Holocaust denial so you can make political opponents look bad. Not do I think that my Jewish identity is affected in the slightest if people make critical remarks about the Israeli army or police force. In fact I can't really understand those that do.
                                  Last edited by Nefertiti2; 26-06-2020, 17:57.

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                                    Do you consider conflating Israel with Jews antisemitism?

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                                      Originally posted by ad hoc View Post
                                      Yes, I've seen a number of friends say they are leaving Labour over this.
                                      You do realise that that will be re-branded as "Labour supporters quit party in support of anti-semite"?

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                                        Well, I'm one of those who resigned from the Labour Party yesterday. I didn't make any big announcement about it on FB because that sort of thing can look pompous, performative, etc. Plus, I know there are good people who will definitely stay and I don't even disagree with them for doing so. What's more, beyond four quid a month, Labour won't be losing out much with my departure. I never developed the habits of a good political activist, to my shame. It wasn't even particularly about the RLB thing. I just couldn't stick it any more.

                                        I voted for Starmer, more in hope than expectation, that he might, as per his pitch, represent a synthesis of the socialist values re-established by Corbyn and the more professional, managerial approach, the competence cherished by centrists. I know quite a lot of people from the Corbyn-left did the same. We've been had. We've been mugged. Every noise made about policy since he was elected, every move he has made, has been to eradicate the legacy of Corbyn as if it were a wholly toxic aberration, a fit of madness. The 2017 near-victory is written out of history, the 2015 trouncing also. We're back to 2015 and a policing of anti-Semitism so rigorous and energetic it inhibits, indeed pretty much precludes any wider discussion of the injustices currently being inflicted on Palestine. We're back to trying to impress people who would never vote Labour in a million years, as a show of political maturity", and to re-invoking patriotism, a roundabout way of getting back to the spirit of "Controls On Immigration" tea mugs. A restoration of 2015, The Glory Year.

                                        The glee of the Centrists is making me feel physically sick. I have to pull back from political discussions because some of them are friends and what I really want to say to them in these arguments is quite personal. They espouse, oh yes, that''s a given, virtuous values; social equality, a fair deal for workers and an end to exploitation, and, of course, they deplore, certainly in brief before holding forth at length about Maxine Peake, the actions of Israel. However, in all of these instances, when someone actually makes the hotheaded proposal that something actually be done about any or all of this, they are quietly horrified, fearing that such measures, if enacted, might upend their world, perhaps even require that we call in the army to restore order. Visions dance before their eyes. Chaos! George Galloway! The IRA! Terror! Starmer's stance on the annexation is of a piece with this; pious words of measured condemnation for the increased occupation but a reluctance to commit to anything so punitive as sanctions. He would do nothing.


                                        This horror isn't expressed in those words, because that's not a reality they would care to face up to, but by a variety of diversionary tactics, generally picking out the sort of unhinged characters who will always be the bane of any radical movement, as if the pursuit of radical politics must be forfeit because some idiot is liable to say something stupid on Twitter. You see? This is what you get. This is why we can't have socialist things.

                                        As has been observed, a lot of these people are associated with music journalism, which surprised me when it became clear as I grew up reading the post-punk NME assuming it was a mandatory given that music journalists be of a strong left wing persuasion. Turns out not. Thing is, in many cases, they consider themselves exempt from accusations of being reactionary because of their hip credentials ("Oo, your a Tory!" they cry ironically to each other). But the fact is, these are generally white, middle aged men who career-wise and property-wise enjoy levels of comfort and security the upcoming, non-grown up generation they sneer at can never hope to enjoy. And if you're appalled at what they say on Facebook, you'd be more so if you heard what some of them say in private . . .

                                        They think they can cope quite merrily without the energy of the many thousands who were inspired to join Labour because of the direction the party might take under Corbyn. Yeah, well see what happens when they begin to melt away en masse. They think politics is simply going through a steady, precedented cycle, with what's happening now a retread of the Foot/Kinnock succession. But times are different and frankly more desperate. "Young" people now means the under-45s. Had the last election been decided by the under-45s only it would be a Labour landslide. They know what's at stake, how grave things have become. It was vetoed by the elderly, Since there was a similar demographic pattern with the Remain/Leave vote, you'd think some of them might be more sympathetic to that.

                                        Evidently, these people think they've got "their' party back; people interested in power, personally vested, not change, who are only in the Labour party to put the brakes on socialism. All power to those who oppose them, within or without the party.






                                        Comment


                                          Excellent- just one point I would dispute, which is that antisemitism let alone "antisemitism" wasn't policed so strongly in 2015. In fact it eas weaponised against labour, because it had a Jewish leader. A number of the early facebook posts that were presented as "antisemitic" under Corbyn like Naz Shah's satirical proposal from Norman Finkelstein that Israel be moved from the Middle East to the midwest were actually posted when Miliband was leader,

                                          the Jewish Chronicle went for Miliband when he (rightly) supported the recognition of Palestine, and when antisemitic trope after antisemiic trope was weaponised against Miliband - "North london (pause) geek, Disloyal, two kitchens, bacon sandwich, hates Britain" the commentariat were largely silent. Freedland did nothing.

                                          Comment


                                            Cheers, Nef, and I'd concede that. Again, the brazen hypocrisy, the double standards, as you say, the weaponisation re antisemitism infuriates me. It feels like a form of guilty liberal displacement. A deep-seated loathing of the left trumps whatever qualms they have about the behaviour of the Israeli state. Also, the idea conveyed in the discourse around Labour that antisemitism was virtually absent from the party prior to Corbyn, erupted like a tumour under his leadership, only now to have magically melted away again under Starmer.

                                            Comment


                                              cracking post, wingco.

                                              Comment


                                                Thanks- the fact that fascists, Afd Supporters, Andrew Neil who employed David Irving and shills for Orb?n are all deeply committed to fighting anitsemtism and only Jeremy Corbyn is an antisemite sticks in my Jewish craw.



                                                Corbyn incidentally was praised by Geoffrey Alderman a fairly Conservative Jew (and father of novelist Naomi)


                                                The fact of the matter is that Corbyn has an impressive record of supporting Jewish communal initiatives. For instance he was recently supportive of Jewish efforts to facilitate the speedy issue of death certificates by the north London coroner. In 2015 he took part in a ceremony in his Islington constituency to commemorate the founding of the North London Synagogue. In 2010 he put his name to an Early Day Motion (tabled by Diane Abbott) calling on the UK government to facilitate the settlement of Yemeni Jews in Britain. Indeed I could fill this entire article with a list of philo-Semitic EDMs that Corbyn has signed since he was first elected as Labour MP for Islington North in 1983.



                                                In 1987 the West London Synagogue approached Islington Council with a startling proposal: to sell its original cemetery to property developers, destroying the gravestones and digging-up and reburying the bodies lying under them. This cemetery (dating from 1840) was not merely of great historic and architectural interest – in the view of orthodox Jews, the deliberate destruction of a cemetery is sacrilegious. So when Islington Council granted the planning application, a Jewish-led and ultimately successful campaign was launched to have the decision reversed. I was part of that campaign. So was Jeremy Corbyn. Meanwhile, the then-leader of Islington Council (1982-92), whose decision to permit the destruction of the cemetery was eventually overturned, was none other than Margaret Hodge (though it is unclear whether she personally was in favour of the proposal).



                                                I have deliberately omitted from this discussion any consideration of Corbyn’s attitude to Zionism and whether anti-Zionism is inherently anti-Semitic. All I will say here – as a proud Zionist – is that in my view context is, again, paramount.



                                                I will agree that from time to time, as backbench MP and party leader, Corbyn has acted unwisely. But the grounds for labelling him an anti-Semite simply do not exist.

                                                After writing that Alderman lost his column in the Jewish Chronicle

                                                Comment


                                                  here it comes...

                                                  the people who abused Diane Abbott and tried to bring about a Labour defeat were right.

                                                  https://twitter.com/mattzarb/status/1276610647384522752?s=20

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                                                    what was jeanmid saying so gleefully about the EHRC?

                                                    https://twitter.com/MorganPaulett/status/1276480198242971649?s=20

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