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Is Trump - gulp - making America great again?

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    Is Trump - gulp - making America great again?

    Average wages in the US are now over $60,000. Only Luxembourg, Switzerland and Iceland, the countries we Europeans always joke about as being absurdly expensive to visit, are higher. Britain's is about $43,000 (or £33,000). We are by and large on a par with France and Germany, and the uppity Irish are about $5,000 per annum ahead on about $48,000.

    I'm sure it's not so long ago that Americans looked at European wage levels with envy, not the other way around. What's changed and is it actually attributable to the big orange baby and his economic policies?

    #2
    Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
    Average wages in the US are now over $60,000. Only Luxembourg, Switzerland and Iceland, the countries we Europeans always joke about as being absurdly expensive to visit, are higher. Britain's is about $43,000 (or £33,000). We are by and large on a par with France and Germany, and the uppity Irish are about $5,000 per annum ahead on about $48,000.

    I'm sure it's not so long ago that Americans looked at European wage levels with envy, not the other way around. What's changed and is it actually attributable to the big orange baby and his economic policies?
    A - The income disparities between the haves and have nots are much wider in America than in Europe.

    B - The economic recovery in the US had already begun under the final term of Obama, so Trump is merely riding the coat-tails of a cyclical wave.

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      #3
      Where are your dollar figures coming from, Rogin?

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        #4
        Originally posted by WOM View Post
        Where are your dollar figures coming from, Rogin?
        The OECD.

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          #5
          C - Median salaries are lower from what I can see. Are you quoting mean household income?

          D - As DR references, there are massive inequalities in the US which tend to inflate the mean figures in particular.

          E - Following from that, define 'great'. The richest nation on earth where you get an income distribution table like this -
          • 1%: $250,000
          • 5%: $140,000
          • 10%: $100,000
          • 20%: $65,000
          • 30%: $45,000
          • 40%: $35,000
          • 50%: $25,000
          • 60%: $20,000
          • 70%: $10,000
          • 80%: $5,000
          • 90%: $0.01 — $4,999
          https://wallethacks.com/average-medi...me-in-america/

          From the same site; The 2018 Poverty Guidelines for a family of four is $25,100 ($31,380 in Alaska and $28,870 in Hawaii).

          The median household disposable income for FYE 2019 was about $38,500 (ONS) and even on this nasty, racist, fascist-leaning island, that would get you free healthcare, a benefits safety net, etc.

          So probs not. Smiley thing.
          Last edited by ChrisJ; 27-12-2019, 13:22. Reason: Smiley added as I didn't want to sound too aggressive to Rogin. Soz.

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            #6
            Yeah, C. is what I was thinking, too. Median is a far more accurate / realistic number to look at, and it's around $33,000. Mean is wildly skewed by the super-rich. And yeah, Trump is very much riding on Obama's coat-tails and there's a very good chance of a market correction / recession before the next election.

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              #7
              I appreciate the difference between mean and median, yes, these are mean salaries per employee not household, and understand the socioeconomic effects of a distribution curve that is less a curve and more of a cliff face. My main point was that a few years ago I’m sure average America was not 25% up on average EU. Certainly not to have got them alongside Switzerland, and wondered what had changed?

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                #8
                No. He's not.

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                  #9
                  Don't be daft. Silly thread.

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                    #10
                    Among the things that have changed

                    a statistically significant portion of the long term unemployed no longer being counted in these statistics, as they are no longer actively seeking work

                    a smaller, though still significant, number no longer being counted as they are dead, particularly from opiates and gun violence

                    an increasing portion of the younger population being employed in the "gig economy", where annualized average wages don't necessarily bear much relation to actual compensation

                    outrageous gains for the top 1 percent, fueled in part by tax cuts and other legislation that favors the wealthy

                    legislatively mandated increases in the minimum wage that the GOP have constantly demonized as an apocalyptic threat to the economy

                    currency effects

                    All of which needs to be viewed in the context of a country without many elements of a social safety net that residents of other developed countries take for granted

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                      #11
                      What percentage of the poorest in the US vote?

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                        #12
                        I know I’m just repeating what everyone else said, but defining national greatness purely through mean full-time employee income is a very narrow restricted definition.

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Rogin the Armchair fan View Post
                          I appreciate the difference between mean and median, yes, these are mean salaries per employee not household, and understand the socioeconomic effects of a distribution curve that is less a curve and more of a cliff face. My main point was that a few years ago I’m sure average America was not 25% up on average EU. Certainly not to have got them alongside Switzerland, and wondered what had changed?
                          Oh. Then I think your premise is deeply flawed. For instance, according to that OECD chart, the highest average wages belongs to Iceland at $66,500. But they also score very high on the Gini Index for incoming equality at 28. Canada and the UK are side by side at 32. United States is down around 45, with Ghana and Peru.

                          The United States also doesn't offer many of the social services - including health care - that many 'wealthy', first-world nations take for granted. Adjusted for that, the perceived disparities are probably much smaller.

                          As for your 'few years ago' perception, imma look around and see if I can find those stats.

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                            #14
                            Originally posted by Sporting View Post
                            What percentage of the poorest in the US vote?

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                              #15
                              Anyone earning a salary above $60K in the US is likely working more than 40 hours per week, so you can't really compare that to countries that have robust labour laws governing things like mandatory overtime pay. We don't have those protections for salaried employees. People sometimes sue for OT, but those people can find themselves out of work and low key blacklisted in their industry.

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                                #16
                                Originally posted by ChrisJ View Post
                                Following from that, define 'great'. The richest nation on earth where you get an income distribution table like this -
                                • 1%: $250,000
                                • 5%: $140,000
                                • 10%: $100,000
                                • 20%: $65,000
                                • 30%: $45,000
                                • 40%: $35,000
                                • 50%: $25,000
                                • 60%: $20,000
                                • 70%: $10,000
                                • 80%: $5,000
                                • 90%: $0.01 — $4,999
                                https://wallethacks.com/average-medi...me-in-america/
                                Given where I live, whenever I see this distribution I am stunned to see the 1% line falls where it does. Though this actually presents a different challenge - the geographic spread of income in the US is wild and the income based standard of living also. It is such a gigantic country that really needs to be looked at on a state level for this kind of data, which very quickly will illustrate voting patterns.

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                                  #17
                                  And data within a large state can differ very widely (see, e.g., New York or California).

                                  Counties are illustrative, but so numerous as to be unwieldy for analytic purposes. Some kind of regional breakdown would be useful, though no one can agree on boundaries.

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                                    #18
                                    Every state has its own income disparity, and voting patterns in the poorest states boil down to the Haves controlling state and local government and doing their best to rob the Have Nots of their say.

                                    I may have just restated what caja-dglh said. Don't @ me, I'm still waking up. Taking the day off work to burn another vacation day from my stockpile. Fortunately it will roll over to next year.

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                                      #19
                                      I would hypothesize that a lot of these work hours are fueled by amphetamines or similar stimulants (including caffeine of course). Massive hidden health damage, physical and mental.

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                                        #20
                                        That's certainly a factor, as are the related ravages of stress.

                                        I have really been struck by the degree to which regular resort to drugs designed to treat ADHD and other conditions has become common among high-achieving twenty-somethings here. Many of them have been on something since middle school, and I feel that we have very little idea of what the long term effects of this will be.

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                                          #21
                                          ^ yes to that. You are getting the first wave of those folk reaching their mid-thirties now. Best I am aware of the ones I encountered, none are showing any particular signs of cutting back.

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                                            #22
                                            Right, this is going to seem very ignorant and I could just Google it, but loads of rappers seem to go on about being addicted to 'Xanax'. What is it? Anyone know what the UK equivalent brand-name is?

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                                              #23
                                              I guess diazepam/valium is the closest, but I could be wrong.

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                                                #24
                                                Ok, I resorted to Google. Xanax is alprazolam which is not available via the NHS, but it's in the same family of drugs as lorazepam and diazepam which I have been prescribed in the past. They're horrific. I don't understand why anyone would take them if they didn't have to. Lorazepam made me put on three stone and left me as a total zombie. It took me about a year to completely wean myself off it. I was given diazepam as an emergency stash in case I had a manic episode or panic attack that I needed to climb down from. I never took them. Personally, I'd rather ride out either a manic episode or a panic attack than knock myself into that sort of zombie state again. It was necessary to pull me out of a psychotic episode, but otherwise I'd prefer never to take it again. I don't understand at all why people would use it recreationally, but then I feel that way about a lot of drugs.

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                                                  #25
                                                  People tend to take diazepam after a long session on uppers. Brings them more level.

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