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The Dis-United Kingdom Thread - (Indyref 2, United Ireland poll, Welsh independence)

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    Anyone know what the Green Party position is on the nations going independent?

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      Scottish Greens are certainly pro-Indy, whatever about the E&W one.

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        Wales has its own Green Party but it's not mentioned in the website policy document (not manifesto!) and there's nothing on the WGP specific page.

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          Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post
          Were a Holyrood election to be held today, the Scottish Tories would even fall behind SLab in seat numbers:
          Here's a wee flavour of exactly why that is -
          https://twitter.com/PhantomPower14/status/1304407695949168642

          Meet the new boss, worse than the old boss.

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            Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post

            I'm sure you're welcome. #AUOB

            But you raise a point. What happens next? They're not a party with a manifesto.

            As someone who grew up in England, still has an accent, and only knows beginners Welsh, I appreciate the "we don't hate England/the English" theme in Yes Cymru messaging. Some of the people who comment on the social media posts on support of independence just sound like racists if they swapped "English" for another nationality or ethnicity.
            but they go further than that in making supportive notions towards english nationalism and suggesting that their campaign is similar to notions of "english independence" which is of course far-right conspiratorial grievance-mongering. England is already independent - in fact it still has an empire. "English independence" makes no sense at all.

            in fact, it's the rise of muscular english/british nationalism that the current wave of support for welsh independence is a reaction to. the nationalist coalition that won the brexit referendum need to keep finding enemies - threats to britain/england.

            "take back control" was effective because it was a racist dog-whistle. but welsh independence is far less about "control" (Cardiff feels more remote than London does if you're anywhere north of Brecon), than about self-preservation. and not from imagined migrant hordes but from gentrification, neoliberal economics and greater-England chauvinism.

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              https://twitter.com/Record_Politics/status/1305453904986091521

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                bold of keir starmer to be calling for a unilateral declaration of independence but fair play

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                  What an ice cream haired cunt. We don't need a failed state of delusional racists either.

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                    Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post

                    but they go further than that in making supportive notions towards english nationalism and suggesting that their campaign is similar to notions of "english independence" which is of course far-right conspiratorial grievance-mongering. England is already independent - in fact it still has an empire. "English independence" makes no sense at all.

                    in fact, it's the rise of muscular english/british nationalism that the current wave of support for welsh independence is a reaction to. the nationalist coalition that won the brexit referendum need to keep finding enemies - threats to britain/england.

                    "take back control" was effective because it was a racist dog-whistle. but welsh independence is far less about "control" (Cardiff feels more remote than London does if you're anywhere north of Brecon), than about self-preservation. and not from imagined migrant hordes but from gentrification, neoliberal economics and greater-England chauvinism.
                    I've been thinking a lot about your points here - it's given me pause.

                    My read on the 'English independence' comments is that it's the comeback to "you're nothing without us / you're a drain on England" trolling, trying to turn that around to say - well maybe you'd be better off without us then. There are memes going around along those lines of 'how come we are nothing but parasites until we say we want to leave'? I can't gauge how genuine the support is for English separatist movements like Yes Kernow.

                    I know there is a tendency for comments from North Wales that Cardiff is out of touch with the North as Westminster, and that probably fueled the switch to Boris's Brexit Party in December 2019. From the South, it's difficult to know what the North wants or even understand it properly - but I wonder if part of that is historical geography (Liverpool being the big city with a gravitational pull) that means it doesn't orient itself towards Cardiff and then complains it gets ignored. (I see this a lot in my work role because we are trying to do all-Wales work and I have to deal with the logistics of people spread across the geography with no quick routes between them. It feels sometimes likes however accommodating we try to be to everyone, no one is happy.)

                    We have some communities and areas that voted to Leave by a large margin, both North and South and maybe in those areas we need to capture those sentiments before the hard right do. We have the Abolish the Assembly Party developing a North Wales base, it would appear, for precisely the reasons you say - Cardiff seems more distant than London - so how do we go about bringing Wales closer together so that we aren't divided and conquered (again)?

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                      Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                      We have some communities and areas that voted to Leave by a large margin, both North and South and maybe in those areas we need to capture those sentiments before the hard right do. We have the Abolish the Assembly Party developing a North Wales base, it would appear, for precisely the reasons you say - Cardiff seems more distant than London - so how do we go about bringing Wales closer together so that we aren't divided and conquered (again)?
                      I can't see the abolish the welsh assembly party making any progress, not least cos plaid brecsit have nicked their usp (who in turn have had their usp stolen by the tories).

                      At the rate things are going, the three far right parties will be lucky to get 5% of the vote between them. like i don't think it's one thing or the other - the majority of people lean towards greater devolution but have no really strong feelings on the matter (and of course, there's a reasonable degree of satisfaction with the Welsh Government's response to covid).

                      That's not to say circumstances can't or won't change (especially wrt brexit) but they're a long way from a breakthrough at the moment.

                      I think the last part of your post comes down to what i was saying before about YesCymru needing some kind of vision beyond "take back control (from san steffan)". Stuff like the lack of meaningful transport infrastructure within wales, rural poverty, urban and rural gentrification, emmigration and unemployment are obvious areas separatists should be talking about and offering visions of how to tackle. but there seems to be a lack of willingness to engage on this at all.

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                        Yes, it appears the Tories have consolidated the "Unionist" (for want of a better term) vote in both the constituency and list ballots, with their rivals to the right [url=https://blogs.cardiff.ac.uk/electionsinwales/2020/09/14/the-september-welsh-political-barometer-poll-2/] cancelling each other out. Labour, though recovering, are still below where they were in 2016, and Plaid show no sign of a breakthrough outside of their traditional strongholds, though slightly improved on the last election.

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                          Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                          I think the last part of your post comes down to what i was saying before about YesCymru needing some kind of vision beyond "take back control (from san steffan)". Stuff like the lack of meaningful transport infrastructure within wales, rural poverty, urban and rural gentrification, emmigration and unemployment are obvious areas separatists should be talking about and offering visions of how to tackle. but there seems to be a lack of willingness to engage on this at all.
                          It's not a political party though, which I think is why it has been so popular. If it became a political party then it would need answers for all those. Is that the right way forward for it? I honestly don't know.

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                            How irredentist is Kernow nationalism?

                            I'm in Dorset at the minute and surprised at the number of brands and companies identifying as Cornish.

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                              Isn't irredentism about restoration of territories "lost"? Cornwall would be more of an independence movement surely?

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                                Indeed - enough work for them in Cornwall, besides trying to claim Devon or Dorset.

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                                  Rather cheekily, Plaid are charging €8.99 for the full report they commissioned on Welsh independence - however, an executive summary is free, and has some interesting suggestions, such as the devolution of justice, a Citizens' Assembly and Commission to tease out issues, and joining EFTA to sort out relations with England, Scotland and the EU.

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                                    A friend of mine has paid for an advert in Eye Love section of Private Eye.

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                                      Originally posted by Gangster Octopus View Post
                                      A friend of mine has paid for an advert in Eye Love section of Private Eye.
                                      Ha, I saw that (assuming it is the one relevant to the thread).

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                                        It is.

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                                          A surprising turn in the thread, even for otf.

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                                            Lib Dems pass a motion (insert pun here) calling for a federal UK, but rather critically, are silent on how England should be governed.

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                                              For fuck sake. If it isn't empty super duper Federalism or as near as dammit worthless shite half promises from Labour, it's these wooly cunts again. How the fuck can it work unless you split England into wee bits? And there's no fucking way I can see the English establishment or many voters taking kindly to vetos from the Celtic fringe.

                                              take your dead horse out back and stop wasting our time. The Union was never precious, always a marriage of convenience and global theft (And not even that for Wales and Ireland), then a Welfare State that's been bleeding out since the moment it began, now it's a suppurating stinking corpse.
                                              Last edited by Lang Spoon; 26-09-2020, 14:20.

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                                                So this showed up on Google. It shows how scared some people are that Independence is becoming more likely. "We did a poll and Nicola is sad now!!!" Is a comforting sop to Express readers.

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                                                  Sturgeon seems to be the new Bertie:

                                                  https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1316333444654301184

                                                  https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1316335954815258624

                                                  https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1316335563721539585

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                                                    58-42 is astonishing. Countries have left political unions on much lower figures before.

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