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The Dis-United Kingdom Thread - (Indyref 2, United Ireland poll, Welsh independence)

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    Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
    The Brexit Party has announced its going to campaign to Abolish the Assembly at the next Welsh Parliament election. I feel a bit worried about this because there is a Brexit voting bloc in Wales now and the Abolish the Assembly loons are typical Vote Leave style liars and scoundrels appealing to base prejudice.

    This leads to a dilemma of do you take them seriously? The Remain party kind of sleepwalked into the referendum back in 2016 because it feels like not enough people took Farage et al seriously, and this feels the same way. It's easy for established politicos in their bubbles to dismiss the BP as fringe nutters, but the electorate aren't always in that bubble.

    But then if you take it seriously, do you give credibility to them?
    Look on the bright side, come independence we'll know who to deport.

    Comment


      Can the Welsh Parliament actually vote to abolish itself?

      Wouldn't it at least require a vote in Westminster as well?

      Comment


        Originally posted by super furry dice View Post

        No, if you take the threats posed by them and simiarlar parties serisously you are not giving credibility to them, you are doing the right thing in being ready to stand against them. Credibilty comes from getting appearences on things like Question Time or similar 'flagship' current affairs/news programmes, things the Beeb gave Farage ahead of parties like the Greens at a time when UKIP weren't such a political force as the Greens were and we now suffer from how that turned out, it allowed Farage to build support in a way he probably wouldn't have done otheriswe. Standing up to them or taking them seriously as a politcal campaigner is a different space.
        Exactly

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          Originally posted by super furry dice View Post

          No, if you take the threats posed by them and simiarlar parties serisously you are not giving credibility to them, you are doing the right thing in being ready to stand against them. Credibilty comes from getting appearences on things like Question Time or similar 'flagship' current affairs/news programmes, things the Beeb gave Farage ahead of parties like the Greens at a time when UKIP weren't such a political force as the Greens were and we now suffer from how that turned out, it allowed Farage to build support in a way he probably wouldn't have done otheriswe. Standing up to them or taking them seriously as a politcal campaigner is a different space.
          This.

          People didn't take Trump seriously. I could make a list. Destroy them before they build up any credibility.

          Comment


            Right so, the Brexit Party, and their politicians that don't represent individual constituencies, wants to overturn the result of a referendum.

            If they find the Senedd so distasteful they could resign as regional MSs and get off the Cardiff Bay gravy train but here they come again with their "Politicans are just a waste of space so vote for me because I want to be a politician" schtick. From what I've seen and heard of the Brexit Party characters in the media it doesn't take much to get them stumped but they just brazen it out ,even with their well-known political histories. Well I suppose their political pasts took place in a different country.

            I'd hope that the last three months has shown people that politics is still about substance, surely people must have seen that elected administrations need properly thought out policies to deal with society's problems rather than pub bores fermenting nihilistic grievances. Sadly hoping is easy.
            Last edited by Kowalski; 12-07-2020, 21:17.

            Comment


              Johnson turns the screw

              https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1282417306342174721?s=21

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                One of the main Abolish the Assembly chancers is a disgraced former Christian revivalist whose ministry with drug addicts was compared to slave labour, and whose OTT pentecostal career ended in some murky shenanigans. He's subsequently re-emerged as a AtA proponent and Brexit Party guy.

                I bet he's on QT next time it comes to Wales. His name is Richard Taylor if you want to look him up.

                The Brexit vote was strong in the North. Wrexham returned a fucking Tory mp ffs. For all the gogs go on being the true Wales they've got fucking short memories if they think Tories in Westminster are going to give a flying fuck about them. The problem is there is a real disconnect between Cardiff and the rest of Wales. They should have built the Senedd in Conwy, then the North would have been on permanent watch to make sure nobody threatened it. Taylor, Reckless and their ilk would be on the pointy ends of pitchforks if they tried their shit then.

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                  (I'm not seriously having a go at the North in that previous post. But the Wrexham voting Tory thing still aggrieves me. Its my ancestral town and it felt like a betrayal.)

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                    The Brexit Party wanting to subsume a country into a greater union is a hypocrisy that won’t be properly called out.

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                      The point about north Wales voting for Brexit and Tory MPs is related to my point about ."pub bores fermenting nihilistic grievances"

                      My Westminster constituency has some of the worst deprivation in Wales yet we have a Tory MP who is/was a GP and has connections with the Centre For Welsh Studies (A body that also features Minford, ex Welsh Minister David Jones and Nathan Gill on its board). Wrexham County borough also suffers from deprivation in places yet they have a Tory MPs that was once a nurse, as for Ynys Mon's representative I don't know what happened there, I'll just mention that she's already mistranslated several bilingual public announcements in a constitueny with one of the highest proportions of Welsh speakers. Imagine being part of the NHS then becoming a Tory MP, ye Gods!

                      "How did all this happen?" I keep asking myself but I already know the answer; it's "pub bores fermenting nihilistic grievances" like everywhere else, the easy answers, the petty selfishness that dare not speak its name, the fatuous "Yeah but what about....." arguments. I actually saw a prime example of this kind of thing before the election.

                      One Wednesday there was a Brexit Party stall in Rhyl. I couldn't resist going over to speak to them and I went in to the conversation with gusto "Yeah but what about Airbus? It's not just "Project Fear" is it, they're just a factory and a factory can be built anywhere can't it?" and "You and your leader are just using the anxieties caused by 40 years of a market economy to create a demand for easy answers" were two off the lines that had him stumped. Imagine 10 mins of "Yeah but we'll make a better economy" he said. "But How?" I said "By taking power back from Brussels." He said.

                      Our tete-a-tete was rudely interrupted when someone sharply deviated from their route to jab his finger at the Brexit poster and vehemently say "That's what we need, I voted for it and I'll vote for Farage now". Needless to say our candidate was off the spot with me and shaking the right hand of the vehement interloper. By the by , a few weeks later one of the pubs in Rhyl was on ITV Wales; news because it was having a Brexit Party on the supposed "Independence Day".

                      I'm not sure south Wales is any better, I was nearly slapped by someone on a train because I was wearing a blue retro football shirt (Argentina '86) only minutes after Wales had lost to France in the 2011 rugby world cup. I was on my way to to watch Bangor in Llanelli at the time, after meeting my mates in the Millenium Stadium.

                      I could despair about everything if I was so inclined.
                      Last edited by Kowalski; 17-07-2020, 17:40.

                      Comment


                        Interesting stuff Kowalski.

                        Anyway, yesterday the Welsh Parliament debated independence for the first time in its history. There's a summary here: https://nation.cymru/news/live-blog-...he-first-time/

                        As one twitterer described it, what other country would have its two ruling parties join forces to tell the electorate that we are too weak and pitiful to govern our own affairs?

                        The "Welsh Conservatives" have proclaimed that independence will cost everyone ?300 a year. Which is peanuts compared to what Brexit is going to cost us all. And at ?6 a week I think it's worth it just to piss off the fucking "Welsh" fucking "Conservatives". I'd be happy to pay ?12 a week if we can make it legal to hunt Tories.

                        I remember once reading about the regiment of black soldiers that fought for the Confederacy. That's what I think of when I hear the words "Welsh Conservatives".

                        Comment


                          Typical Tory tactics; "Our desires are naturally correct but we have statistics that prove that whatever you want is both scientifically and naturally wrong."


                          ".

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                            There is an absurdity that Plaid Cymru want Wales to be independent and members of the EU, and the Brexit Party want Wales out of the EU but denied any form of devolved self-government.

                            I also discovered reading that Nation.Cymru blog that there is an 'Abolish the Assembly' member in the Senedd, but he is ex-UKIP I think. The rate at which politicians get elected and then change parties is incredible really. I think there should be a rule that if you are elected as a representative of one party, if you leave the party a by-election gets triggered. Particularly if you are elected off the list system like all the Kippers are because then people are literally voting for the party not the person.

                            Comment


                              Generally, part​​​​​​ of the problem in our politics is that its truisms contradict each other. For example, 'all politics is local' or its variant 'your individual rep not some faceless party in Cardiff/ London/ Brussels'. But of course most people just vote for the badge even though they know politicians regularly leave parties once elected

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                                Funnily enough I was looking at the results of the last Senedd Cymru election yesterday and noticed that Abolish The Welsh Assembly got 4.4% of the Region vote even then, with UKIP mopping up 12.5-13% of the national vote.

                                Probably not to be ignored.
                                polling suggests roughly the same proportion of people favour independence as abolishing the Senedd. neither are particularly likely in the near future. Most people favour more powers if pushed - and the 2011 referendum suggests that if there's a silent, anti-devolution majority out there, they can't be arsed turning up the the polls.

                                That the kippers elected in 2016 (an election held shortly before the referendum) have come out for abolition of the Senedd is less a suggestion that they have their finger on the popular pulse and more that they're grifters frantically scrabbling for the next meal ticket..

                                Their problem is really unlike the EU referendum (where the EU had been cast for many years as an unaccountable force tinkering with the British way of life), the usual arguments do not hold water. They can (and do) say it's a "talking shop" but then face the fact that giving the Senedd more powers is popular. They can argue it does more than was originally promised, but the increased role was ratified by popular vote and the Welsh Government's policies during lockdown have proved unprecedentedly popular. They can argue it's a trojan horse for independence, but unionist parties have dominated since inception.

                                Their real problem though is that they're British (read English) nationalists and the culture war they want to wage is geared towards middle England - i.e. the people sitting in Shropshire pubs fuming about "the Welsh getting something-for-nothing" i.e. free prescriptions simply cos they elect governments who want to maintain free prescriptions.

                                Welsh people quite like getting something for nothing (provided it's them getting the something and not, say, marginalised people within Wales).

                                The Welsh brexiteer pub bores (along with the rest of us) are going to find that they're pushed onto the other side of the culture war. Even if they currently think "the Assembly" is a waste of money and should be scrapped, the aggressive wave of right-wing British (English) nationalism that they happily participated in in 2016 still going to see them as taffy parasites, scrounging off poor old put upon John Bull.

                                Comment


                                  which is to say, the thing that makes Welsh independence most likely is not separatist sentiment in Wales but separatist sentiment in England.

                                  Comment


                                    Same for Scotland really, English separatist sentiment is what will accelerate things seeing as Fucking Westminster won't give a section 30 order for a ref they might lose. It's an impasse up there same as when Fucking Thatcher and that grey bastard Major refused devolution for 18 years.

                                    the Kippers are also abolish the Scottish Parliament wanks up North, that's never going to get more than 10% but grifters gotta grift. And it'll be almost all Tory scum red white and blue underpants voters they pick off so who gives a fuck.
                                    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 17-07-2020, 22:44.

                                    Comment


                                      BBC1 is currently showing the 2012 Olympic opening ceremony.

                                      A time when I naively thought that the country might actually be on the way to being better.

                                      8 years later England is a toxic, wannabe-tax-haven, banana republic shithole and I sincerely hope it burns to the fucking ground.

                                      Comment


                                        I just hope Covid wave two kills off the entire cabinet. But that's never going to happen so yeah let it burn.

                                        Comment


                                          Originally posted by Bizarre Löw Triangle View Post
                                          Their real problem though is that they're British (read English) nationalists and the culture war they want to wage is geared towards middle England - i.e. the people sitting in Shropshire pubs fuming about "the Welsh getting something-for-nothing" i.e. free prescriptions simply cos they elect governments who want to maintain free prescriptions.

                                          Welsh people quite like getting something for nothing (provided it's them getting the something and not, say, marginalised people within Wales).

                                          The Welsh brexiteer pub bores (along with the rest of us) are going to find that they're pushed onto the other side of the culture war. Even if they currently think "the Assembly" is a waste of money and should be scrapped, the aggressive wave of right-wing British (English) nationalism that they happily participated in in 2016 still going to see them as taffy parasites, scrounging off poor old put upon John Bull.
                                          Or, as the editorial in this week's Golwg puts it

                                          "it's one thing for half of Wales to agree with English nationalists about Europe, it's another thing for half of Wales to agree with them about Wales."

                                          Comment


                                            The parasites angle is weird as well because it's a response you hear often "Wales couldn't afford to go it alone. England subsidises it. Blah blah blah." To which I want to ask "So are you happy with that?" There's seems to be this strange thing where people think Wales is a parasite but then won't let us leave.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by Patrick Thistle View Post
                                              The parasites angle is weird as well because it's a response you hear often "Wales couldn't afford to go it alone. England subsidises it. Blah blah blah." To which I want to ask "So are you happy with that?" There's seems to be this strange thing where people think Wales is a parasite but then won't let us leave.
                                              Sounds very much like an abusive relationship.

                                              Comment


                                                Yeah but these are the same people who think that the UK subsidised the rest of the EU. Everyone else is a parasite, except them of course. They got where they were through hard work etc.

                                                Comment


                                                  Originally posted by Antepli Ejderha View Post

                                                  Sounds very much like an abusive relationship.
                                                  When you factor in all the gaslighting and negging attempts, it does.

                                                  "You're nothing without me!" are the words of a narcissist nation.

                                                  Comment


                                                    I had to look up negging.

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