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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Oh yes. I like that account's pinned tweet.

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  • MsD
    replied
    Well, this cheers me up.

    https://twitter.com/DadTrans/status/...981807105?s=20

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Fascinating conversation between Juliet Jacques and the author McKenzie Wark, who I was not previously familiar with. Her book 'Reverse Cowgirl' sounds pretty intriguing.

    https://frieze.com/article/mckenzie-...ans-literature

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    I'm OK. I mean, things are quite bad, politically. Orban has had a particular thing about 'Gender Ideology' for a while, it rolls right in with his traditionalistfash misogyny.

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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    I'm going to contact my local Trans* community representatives and see how they are coping and if they are receiving extra transphobia from authorities. I will report back.

    Hope all is OK for you with meds and access to professionals, dm. Stay strong and know you have our love and thoughts.

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Things are quite bad.

    https://twitter.com/junodawson/status/1246001436900691970

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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    Originally posted by laverte View Post
    Trans women is two words, like gay women or Asian women or awesome women.
    not always

    But I will follow your usage from now on.

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  • MsD
    replied
    z
    Last edited by MsD; 20-03-2020, 08:18.

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  • laverte
    replied
    Trans women is two words, like gay women or Asian women or awesome women.

    The fears about men gaining access to women’s only spaces are as much about peeping and flashing as about harassment and violence, i think. Again the terf delusion that trans women are perverts with an unhealthy interest in women’s bodies makes them seem a particular threat in this scenario.

    Regarding the word ‘queer’ i agree that there’s an age divide. However i have also come across people who reject it for political-philosophical reasons. The argument is that queer obscures the particularities of gender and sexuality, and bundles up homosexuality with ‘unrelated’ minorities such as transgender and asexuality and so on. i have encountered something similar from a trans woman in a heterosexual marriage who is uncomfortable with being part of a ‘queer’ movement when she is straight.

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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    My concerns with the proposal would be that it's still assuming only two genders and that the requirement of "permanence" denies the existence of fluidity. We still seem to be a long way from any possibility of non-binary or androgyny being recognized as a gender. It's also unclear to me what happens to intersex people, whom terfs seem to believe do not exist.

    It's also a fact that you cannot know for sure your true sex, even if you have babies, etc, unless you have a valid test. There are a lot more chromosome variations than XX and XY and hormones do not correlate precisely with genitals (see Caster Semenya). I might have more oestrogen than the man next door, for all I know (Terfs seem to assume that only people born female have any oestrogen).*

    It's also dumb as fuck to use oestrogen to predict death rates from Coronavirus because women with ovaries stop producing oestrogen after menopause.

    Violence I assume is correlated partly with testosterone, which is blocked in some transwomen but not others. But the overwhelming majority of violent acts by transwomen are against the self: suicide.

    *Some info on oestrogen in men:

    http://neolifeclinic.com/blog/the-im...r-men/?lang=en
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 15-03-2020, 00:14.

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  • MsD
    replied
    X
    Last edited by MsD; 20-03-2020, 08:19.

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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    Suzanne Moore is now using lies about the Coronavirus to spread her transphobia. I won't link because it's hateful stuff.

    I guess it was inevitable that Terfs would star using the pandemic to falsely infer proof of a biological essentialist position from data that aren't even on the same planet as proper methodology.
    Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 14-03-2020, 22:41.

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
    My guess (and it is only a guess) is that much of the money is coming from the US



    It is, yes. I'll post some stuff on this when I feel up to getting it.
    There's a bit on that in the Katelyn Burns article in post one of this thread. I know there's a more detailed piece somewhere, but I don't want to go delving for it right now.

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  • TonTon
    replied
    I've mostly got over my shuddering at "queer" from way back. I still don't tend to use it much myself, though intellectually I'm with dm on it.

    Most of my trans friends do seem to reject "transsexual", some more vigorously than others.

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel View Post
    dm, is "transsexual" a term you find comfortable or stigmatizing? I recall that Christine Jorgensen rejected it, for example, because it seems to reduce a gender change to a sex one.
    I have no strong opinion. It sounds old-fashioned to me. I've a hunch 'transgender' may have become more popular because it doesn't have 'sex' in it, but no proof of that.

    Originally posted by laverte View Post
    There's still a pocket of resistance to Queer though isn't there?
    I think there's a loose generational divide. Older people experienced 'queer' as negative, younger people experienced 'gay' as negative, so accordingly prefer the word that they don't directly connect with abusive nonsense. But 'queer' is more all-encompassing as well, which is why I like it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Balderdasha
    replied
    Yesterday, on the bus with my son, there was an individual who I got the sense was dressing as a woman in public for possibly the first time. They had no make up or wig, but were wearing peach pump shoes, tights, white shorts, a silver padded coat, a pink woolly hat, and carrying a pink handbag. I doubt I would have noticed except that they were giving off an air of being incredibly nervous. Part of me wanted to say "well done, it'll be ok", but I thought that talking to a stranger in the UK might make them even more self-conscious or embarrassed. So, we just sat in the seat in front of them and said nothing. My son was having a loud imaginary conversation about invisible dragons or something. It seemed to make them smile.

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  • MsD
    replied
    The Twitter conversations have been so nuts I don't know where or whether to begin. The last 24 hours on my Twitter account have been dominated by:

    1. A Terfy meeting near Grenfell was picketed by some quite lively trans activists, who decided it would be a good idea to set off "protest flares". Which "scared" the terves, who bullied the trans, who set off the flares etc. etc. who lived in the house that. Of course it was stupid and insensitive, given Grenfell. They did apologise on Twitter, but the terves are still going on about it as though they hadn't, and trying to bring everyone onto their side. (I suggested to the activists that they apologise a bit more and to the terves that they at least acknowledge the apology, but neither listen to me and I just got called loads of names by random bigots.)

    The Grenfell row is being led by a woman who's a former firefighter. She seems to have left the service over the FBU's decision to make female showers "mixed". In practice, I don't know how many times a transwoman firefighter would need to shower alongside a woman, and if either felt uncomfortable, couldn't they take it in turns (as I would with a female colleague)? As usual, it's been blown up to look as though all female firefighters have to share with blokes who've decided they feel a bit girly today. And no-one can contradict her, as she's an ex-firefighter.

    2. Fucking Labour terfs and their support for "women's rights". I caught one person distributing a petition to terfs and asking them to sign it as "Labour supporters" even though some of them were plainly nothing of the sort. I hope the leadership hopefuls stand firm against this nonsense. One gay male terf, who is anti-trans as he's not homophobic or misogynist like me, has Richard Burgon's name in his handle and his support for Corbyn in his bio but sees no contradiction in supporting those two and making nonsense statements about "male aggression" being rife within trans groups.

    You'd think the terves might wake up at some point to the awful people that are on their side. The gay Labour member I'm talking about here didn't seem to mind that there was a full-on rightwing racist cheering him on in attacking me.


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  • Satchmo Distel
    replied
    dm, is "transsexual" a term you find comfortable or stigmatizing? I recall that Christine Jorgensen rejected it, for example, because it seems to reduce a gender change to a sex one.

    Leave a comment:


  • laverte
    replied
    That's an interesting and frightening take, BLT. i really enjoy reading you on this issue (and many others). i'm with you on the sudden cuddliness of Bindel and others. It probably goes to show that the mainstream has nothing left to fear from second-wave feminism, and so now its decaying carcass can be picked open for ideas that are used to further a much less radical agenda.

    i feel duty-bound to offer a ray of hope by mentioning the reaction to the reaction. Young left-leaning people, especially in queer and feminist circles, are not only non-plussed by trans-exclusive ideology, they're organising against it in significant numbers. Whereas previous toxic arguments in those movements often pitted liberals against radicals, this one really is generational. In terms of who the belligerents are, it's more Brexit than bondage. And it has rejuvenated LGBTQ+ activism in particular, made it more diverse and moved it away from the cosy family-focused movement it had threatened to become.

    Originally posted by delicatemoth
    when I transitioned, a lot of the social support I'd had as a 'genderfucker' ebbed or vanished. No-one said it outright, but I could feel that people thought I was 'going too far'. And some of the most disappointing people were the ones who'd encouraged me to dress superfemme, who'd given me perfume and makeup as presents.
    i wanted to say that i found this really interesting too and it's definitely something that i could have been (that i could be?) guilty of. Of course it doesn't just apply to trans women, although i can see why it would have a more powerful effect on yous. But the question of whether conforming to gender norms is intrinsically counter-productive or counter-revolutionary is one that feminists haven't managed to resolve, despite years of femme pride and much boosterism from the cosmetics industry. It has flared up again as part of the anti-trans hysteria because in that context the paraphernalia of femininity can be made to seem wholly 'artificial'. What your testimony shows is that the truth is quite the opposite: the so-called paraphernalia of gender can in fact be vital elements of an identity. i might prefer it if my friends' daughters climbed trees and got excited about maths but instead they dress up as princesses and go to ballet. i can't possibly know why that is, and so it's unfair of me to measure their behaviour against the hopes and ideals i might want for them.

    Originally posted by Satchmo Distel
    I have corresponded with Halberstam
    Cool! Then i'm sorry for the 'splain.

    and I think his view now is that Queer has taken most of the edge off those wars; stone butch in particular has dissolved into Queer so no longer conflicts with FTM transitions.
    There's still a pocket of resistance to Queer though isn't there? i'm reminded of this when Tactical Genius writes about his reservations over the use of 'people of colour' and the way it effaces the (contestable?) singularity of Blackness.

    Originally posted by delicatemoth
    Yes yes absolutely, some people really have a lot invested in the wondrousness and power of motherhood.
    Ha ha!!

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
    My guess (and it is only a guess) is that much of the money is coming from the US
    It is, yes. I'll post some stuff on this when I feel up to getting it.

    Originally posted by laverte View Post
    especially among educated older white women who may feel directly threatened by the destabilisation of the concept of 'woman'
    Yes yes absolutely, some people really have a lot invested in the wondrousness and power of motherhood.

    Originally posted by laverte View Post
    The second and third wave have been at odds over almost every critical issue previously: pornography, prostitution, BDSM, agency and empowerment, and many more.
    Less so for the bolded, S W U R F & T U R F was always a thing, and BDSM lesbians were certainly harassed by these types in th '80s, I'll try and dig out some stuff on that too.

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  • Bizarre Lw Triangle
    replied
    Originally posted by laverte View Post
    The comparison with Gamergate is really enlightening but i still think that the association with radical second-wave feminism is vital for the transphobic ideology at the heart of the anti-trans movement to have credibility. That is in turn necessary for the coalition of contradictory interests to hold together. The radical roots of 'cis-only' ideology are what supposedly separate it from mere bigotry, are what make it acceptable to a broader spectrum of people. Linehan thinks he is defending not just 'women', but a cornerstone of feminist thinking. It's strange that it has taken thirty years for the backlash against 'queer theory' to enter the mainstream, and i wonder if the reaction against gay marriage is part of it.
    Yes, agreed, I think it's important to recognise that this isn't just a movement of, as E10Rifle says upthread, the reactionary right - many of the ideas are homegrown in leftist circles, particularly second-wave feminism. And it's important to acknowledge that many of these people still command respect and authority within the left and feminist currents.

    But many right-wing-to-liberal men who openly mocked radical feminists for decades (c.f. the Claire Grogan character in Father Ted) are now suddenly - not only making common cause with transphobic feminists, but also sanctifying second wave feminist history (or a transphobic pastiche of second wave feminist history).

    There's something interesting about how ideas and beliefs propagate - five years ago your average Spectator journalist would probably have regarded Julie Bindel as the personification of the misogynist Viz cartoon Millie Tant. Now they view her as a noble and tireless champion for women's justice. Meanwhile anti-trans feminists are being drawn into an increasingly cruel anti-progressive views (with a general hostility to "wokeness", queerness and, indeed, anything non-normative), while room for nuance is allowed on former shibboleths like abortion. It's political syncretism in action, and probably why the coalition doesn't instantly fracture.

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  • ursus arctos
    replied
    My guess (and it is only a guess) is that much of the money is coming from the US, which has well established networks of which reactionaries who are perfectly happy to divert a portion of the zillions they have saved via recent tax policy to the demonisation of the Other, as well as a massive network devoted to extracting funds from the less well off for the same purpose.

    The role of US money in the literally murderous campaigns against LGBT people in certain sub-Saharan countries or in the promotion of "traditional values" in Europe is more visible on the surface, though likely not that different in concept.

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  • laverte
    replied
    Yes, dm's and BLT's posts in reply to my question upthread are brilliant. Thank you.

    Originally posted by Bizarre Lw Triangle View Post
    To ask what the goals are of such a movement is asking the wrong question - whatever the goals of the original apprentices, there's a sentient army of brooms now recruiting and radicalising people.
    i hear you on this. i wondered whether focusing on the movement's (lack of clear) goals might put the brakes on some of that recruitment but i think delicatemoth has explained why that might in fact be a dangerous strategy.

    If you look at other big, leaderless, heterogeneous reactionary movements (Gamergate, for example), the political goals aren't obvious - but the motivating factor is status and access to resources within the "movement". This works to both radicalise and discipline sympathisers - "new atheist" youtubers quickly realised how lucrative attacking video game feminists was and switched wholesale. Meanwhile access to platforms and resources becomes conditional on the more moderate faces implicitly tolerating the less palatable elements.

    The same is true, I think, of the anti-trans movement. The sums of money sloshing around are vast, and the potential for grift enormous and that's what keeps the contradictions within the movement from fracturing it - and it's what keeps the more respectable faces - trade union leaders, liberal hacks etc - loosely tied to a largely middle-class conservative anti-progressive backlash.
    This is so true and important. Where is the money coming from?

    The comparison with Gamergate is really enlightening but i still think that the association with radical second-wave feminism is vital for the transphobic ideology at the heart of the anti-trans movement to have credibility. That is in turn necessary for the coalition of contradictory interests to hold together. The radical roots of 'cis-only' ideology are what supposedly separate it from mere bigotry, are what make it acceptable to a broader spectrum of people. Linehan thinks he is defending not just 'women', but a cornerstone of feminist thinking. It's strange that it has taken thirty years for the backlash against 'queer theory' to enter the mainstream, and i wonder if the reaction against gay marriage is part of it.

    In any case, as well as the material and prestige benefits that you describe of joining up to express hatred of trans people, i do believe there are significant ideological and emotional drivers too, especially among educated older white women who may feel directly threatened by the destabilisation of the concept of 'woman', and who represent a kind of model victim. As i've said before i think there's a strong element of nostalgia in the backlash, of grieving for a straightforward definition of 'woman' from which an outward-looking, strident and materially focused political movement could emerge, rather than the complicated, introspective, self-critical, intersectional work that has come to dominate younger feminist organising. What's interesting to me is seeing the convergence of radical feminists and liberals in this act of grieving. The second and third wave have been at odds over almost every critical issue previously: pornography, prostitution, BDSM, agency and empowerment, and many more. Now they are coming together in transphobia. Part of the reason is that none of them really has anything material at stake: this is a conceptual or philosophical issue that only concerns them on an intellectual plane. But above all i think there's the question of their legacy, as the second wave retires and the third wave passes or loses control of its media platforms. Young women are feeling worse than ever. Why aren't they doing anything about it, fighting back? It's easier for us older feminists to point the finger at the role of queer theory and intersectionality and 'infiltration' by trans people than it is to address our own mistakes and failures.

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    Can I give extra kudos to this magnificent phrase, please?

    Originally posted by Bizarre Lw Triangle View Post
    sentient army of brooms

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  • delicatemoth
    replied
    MP of the ruling party finds this a propitious moment to push segregation for trans people. Thanks to all the liberal bigots and both-sides-ers for laying the ground for this. I'm tired and sick but I can't switch off from this, it's my fucking life.

    [URL]https://twitter.com/PinkNews/status/1237539233297911808[/URL]

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