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    I did Tweet "suck on my balls" at a TERF today, which is a funny Beyonce quote, but then I deleted it. Otherwise I'd get TERFs dog-piling me thinking I'm a pre-op man harassing women. I can see how many transwomen must be provoked into saying outrageous things sometimes. The little bit of hate I get for being an ally is tiring enough.

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      Francisco Galarte, a self-identified transfronterizo:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRFZklbwU-A

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        The rape of a trans person was not legally recognized as a crime until this 1996 case:

        http://www.pfc.org.uk/caselaw/R%20ve...20Matthews.pdf

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          I hope the Scottish Greens don't indulge cranks in the SNP fashion:

          https://twitter.com/LgbSnp/status/1229384475211071488

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            Joanna Cherry is dangerous scum. She was throwing around alt right memes like Wokeus Dei last week. Things will get very bad and Tartan Trumpy if the Salmondite Transphobe wing get hold of the SNP leadership.

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              Ah, appears they're all sockpuppet accounts:

              https://twitter.com/AprilPreston_/status/1229812188195491840

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                Looks as if they all got suspended.

                Oh, all but the Tory one.

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                  This is a good response to the awful Suzanne Moore https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/03/0...e-transphobia/

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                    Might be time to boycott the Guardian until it stops giving an outlet to Terfs.

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                      I wouldn't give them any money for anything ever, absolutely. I am now trying very hard not to link to their stuff as well. It is bloody hard to find a replacement general newsy source though.

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                        Always ensure your adblocker is on when you read your weekly Squires!

                        If you really want to boycott newspapers that are disgusting about trans people, that'll be most of the nationals. Possible exceptions (I've honestly no idea how bad these are, I just know that they're rarely featured in Trans Media Watch) - Mirror, FT, Daily Star, Independent. As far as I know the Sun and Express are not especially anti-trans i.e. they're no worse than they are about other minorities which is appalling so don't buy them anyway. The Morning Star was the outright worst for a while, until the Times, Mail and Guardian started taking an interest. Also, stop paying your TV licence (do this anyway, it has no justification and their mailouts that attempt to menace people into buying one are really nasty) cos the BBC are fucking shits as well. They had that unhinged comedy writer on Newsnight to compare medical care for trans kids to Nazi experiments, then the next week they had him on their rancid cuntfest 'The Moral Maze', which has always been a sewer of bigotry as far as I can work out.

                        Here's longstanding Graun hack P Toynbee bemoaning opposition to Section 28 back in 1988 - https://twitter.com/JamesHeartfield/status/1000049831405064194. It's always been the newspaper equivalent of your liberal 'mate' who melts away when you get hassled and later observes with a pained expression "But you do bring it on yourself to an extent."

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                          OK, a load of staff across the Guardian's various stations are sick of this and have signed a letter to the editor (who, unfortunately, is a major part of the problem). I know Guardian USA people have previously spoken out about all this but this is the first kickback I've heard about from the UK branch - https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstru...-rights-letter.

                          There is also possibly an uptick in awareness that there is currently an actual hate campaign being waged against us. I base this on the entirely scientific sample of two cis people I know who, when I mentioned that the current climate is making me more reluctant than usual to go outside, actually knew what I was talking about. Normally I have to explain.

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                            i'm happy to take this over to the Piers Morgan – Transphobe thread if anyone feels it doesn't have its place here, but i have a question about 'terfs'*; for obvious reasons i cannot put it to any of them directly. What is their endgame? i mean, in terf paradise, what happens to trans people? Are they given a kind of nor-neither status as a third gender? (Then what would happen to a trans woman who dressed as and resembled and tried to live as a woman?) Or are they considered to be deluded and therefore... what? Sent for re-education? Locked up in a room with yellow wallpaper until they get over it?

                            Moreover, if terfs succeed in preventing trans people from having their genders officially recognised, and if they prevent clinics from giving hormones to anybody who might possibly change their mind at some point, and if they are able to force trans women to use men's facilities in work and public spaces and prisons and refuges, do they expect trans people and their allies to accept this state of affairs in perpetuity? It's a war that can't be won.

                            There's only one way out of this dead end and that's to accept that trans and non-binary people are the gender they say they are. Might as well do it now because trans people aren't going to disappear all of a sudden. i mean, if Suzanne Moore learnt anything from Section 28 (which didn't affect her in any case) it should have been that people have to look empirical reality in the face, even when it forces them to reconsider an ideology they've previously believed to be true.

                            The other important thing i'm taking away from delicatemoth's posts upthread is that Polly Toynbee has been writing a column in a national newspaper since before i sat my GSCEs. And they say there's no such thing as a job for life any more.

                            *i still don't like this label. My current proposed alternative is Solidarity With Almost All Sisters: Trans and Intersex Keep Away (Swaas:tikas).

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                              I'm not sure that there is an endgame as such

                              On one level, the goal appears to be the preservation of Cis female only spaces (which also tend to be very white and privileged), but the "rationale" tends to fall to pieces when broader questions are posed. My sense is that they want people who make them uncomfortable to go away/disappear, and that also applies in areas having nothing to do with gender identity.

                              As we often note, the degree to which this is primarily a British thing that people from elsewhere find unfathomable continues to be striking

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                                There must be a minority of swivel eyed bigots in Canada but, the Wings over Scotland/Joanna Cherry/ Joan McAlpine /LGB alliance/Women Make Glasgow/A Woman's Place Linehanite bastards that are helping to destroy the SNP are fixated on stories from there.
                                Last edited by Lang Spoon; 07-03-2020, 13:49.

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                                  My mum seems to think that the media is creating more trans people than the background average (she accepts that intersex and trans people have always existed, she just preferred when it was presumed to be very small numbers of people and not 'advertised' as an option). She thinks that people who historically would have just been 'tomboys' or effeminate men, are now being 'encouraged' to go through the process of a full transition, unnecessarily. She thinks that our concepts of gender are too extreme and that if we were more accepting of different expressions of gender, people wouldn't feel the need to change from one to the other. For example, she's much happier with the existence of Grayson Perry, who is a man with a professional female persona, than if he said he wanted to transition to becoming a woman.

                                  Her ideas on this are clearly jumbled though, as while she claims to think gender norms shouldn't be rigid, she also thinks that Caitlyn Jenner isn't a 'real woman' because she mooned people on 'I'm a Celebrity' and real women wouldn't do that (my argument that I knew lots of teenage girls who mooned drivers out of the back of our school bus fell on deaf ears).

                                  I think her ideal 'endpoint' would be for everyone to stop talking about it / writing newspaper articles about it, and for trans people to remain secret, or be a rarity that she didn't have to think about. Which is clearly not going to happen.
                                  ​​​​​

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                                    Thanks, ursus and Balderdasha. i mean, in a way you've come up with a non-answer (and perhaps dm or someone other will have a more acute sense of where this could be going) but that's the swaastikas' fault, not (y)ours. Balders' mum's opinions are exactly the same ones that were used to object to 'fashionable' homosexuality back in the day and it depresses me that there are lesbians and other gay and queer people who do not recognise this.

                                    As i've said previously on here, i find the trans-exclusionary agenda to be somewhat fathomable, even persuasive on an abstract level in some parts. But that fathomability has limits, and the question of the (lack of an) endgame would at least make me think again about why i was investing so much a project that seems doomed to failure or, as you say, represents a Brexit-like escapist-denialist fantasy.

                                    Satchmo:

                                    I'd guess that a TERF might claim that a trans man was betraying "her" true gender because she was raised as a girl and should identify more with the experiences of girls than boys. Or maybe trans men are trying to benefit from patriarchy by rejecting the gender of its victims?
                                    There's an interesting (and somewhat controversial) chapter on this subject in Female masculinity, the book by J Halberstam whom from other threads i know you've been reading. Perhaps you've read it? The chapter is called something like Border Wars and it's about the 1990s arguments among masculine women, butches and trans men with regard to the meaning of terms like 'woman' and 'gender' and 'masculinity'. i think it's considered to be out of date and even clumsily insensitive now but it might give you an idea of where this issue has moved on from in the last 20 years.
                                    Last edited by laverte; 07-03-2020, 14:03.

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                                      Homosexuality, disability, non-conforming religion, etc. Anything that can be cast as Other. It is a very old and sad story.

                                      I should clarify that it isn't that the theoretical "basis" for the position that is unfathomable (I think I am in a very similar place on that), but the sheer volume of the campaign (in both senses of the word). In part that reflects the fact that on this side of the Atlantic, the position is very much a bugbear of the rabid reactionary right.
                                      Last edited by ursus arctos; 07-03-2020, 14:20.

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                                        Yes, for definite, a lot of terfs/haters think that there's a silly craze for transitioning, and that children are being warped to think of themselves as trans when they're just confused and need some more time in the fresh air or something (as with gayness before), and many of them think it's because being a man has its value eroded, or something.

                                        This was this exchange just this week on Twitter:
                                        A: How do the rights of trans women interfere with the rights of cis women?
                                        B: They try to re define what it means to be a woman, if anyone can be a woman then woman isnt a thing and the struggles of women dont matter
                                        A: That makes no sense? Trans women existing doesn’t change what it means to be a woman.
                                        B: But it does? If woman becomes whatever you feel then the term woman can apply to anyone and everyone making the idea of women useless
                                        MsD: Women won't be usurped by broadening out definitions of women, actually it could liberate us if we're not defined by our "reproductive" organs.
                                        B: Thats what many people think but all it does is empower men. Woman becomes an invalid identity because it becomes universal while the idea of what a man is becomes more pure and set in stone.
                                        MsD: How does a friend's increasing femaleness take away from mine? It makes no sense.Also, how are men empowered by having notions of masculinity "set in stone"? Many men have trouble with just that. Hence mental health crisis.
                                        B: Where do you think the men who cant handle it go? They dont stick with the male identity they jump ship to something that they can feel better in
                                        MsD: You think all troubled men seek to transition??? Don't be daft.
                                        B: The idea of multiple genders rn is already doing something similar. If we have a future where anyone can be a woman and theres more genders then why would any man who feels too much pressure being masculine remain in the male category?

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                                          i'd be keen to hear from B where trans men might fit in, except that after only four sentences i'm keen never to hear any opinion from B again.

                                          ETA: i mean, B's very first contribution is four statements that don't follow on from each other, and that's the closest to coherence they managed. i would have bailed out there. Well done to you MsD for not giving up trying to drum some sense into them.
                                          Last edited by laverte; 07-03-2020, 14:41.

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                                            D: It's like you think there are no trans men.
                                            B: They're a temporary phenomena
                                            D: Like my engagement with your bullshit.

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                                              Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
                                              She thinks that people who historically would have just been 'tomboys' or effeminate men, are now being 'encouraged' to go through the process of a full transition, unnecessarily. She thinks that our concepts of gender are too extreme and that if we were more accepting of different expressions of gender, people wouldn't feel the need to change from one to the other. For example, she's much happier with the existence of Grayson Perry, who is a man with a professional female persona, than if he said he wanted to transition to becoming a woman.
                                              Balderdasha, I really appreciate that you talk to your mum about these issues, and this jumps out at me, because it is a belief shared by a lot of people who identify as 'progressive', and they are absolutely right that we need to be more accepting of differing gender expressions. Their error is in thinking that this applies to trans people in the way they conceptualise it, because we are not simply people whose expression is at variance with the standard expression of the gender we're assigned.

                                              I've posted before on here that I spent years presenting as an overtly feminine man. I experienced the usual sort of rubbish in public, but it doesn't happen that much and friends, family, were generally supportive, sometimes fiercely and protectively so. It helped, a bit, and I tried very very hard because I did not want to be trans. But, I eventually had to transition. Pretending to be a man was literally killing me, it had little to nothing to do with gender expression. (Ironically, I sometimes suspect that if I'd been more inhibited about gender expression then the 'time of reckoning' might have come sooner). And when I transitioned, a lot of the social support I'd had as a 'male genderfucker' ebbed or vanished. No-one said it outright, but I could feel that people thought I was 'going too far'. And some of the most disappointing people were the ones who'd encouraged me to dress superfemme, who'd given me perfume and makeup as presents.

                                              So I dunno, you could show her what I say here, but I wouldn't expect it to do much good because antis tend to simply ignore all our testimony of our lived experiences as well as all the proper scientific evidence that says we are who we say we are.

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                                                This is a good thread on the bad faith and energy vampirism regularly exhibited by those antis who 'just want a debate':- https://twitter.com/Chican3ry/status/1236212933585235968

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                                                  In another online space the 'want a debate' is framed as 'I just want to ask a question...' and cue a long rambling tirade. We call it JAQing Off.

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