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    #51
    Well you have your answers, yet again. So you got what you say you wanted.

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      #52
      Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post

      Did it occur to you that I posted the question because I wanted to know?
      If you want to know, I'd recommend reading carefully through the other posts on the forum. There's loads on the Piers Morgan thread and enough in this thread to answer everything.

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        #53
        I am utterly gobsmacked that that "question" is still asked on OTF. I'd expect it in, say, the Spectator or Washington Times. But OTF? In the 21st century? It's jaw-dropping.

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          #54
          Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post

          Did it occur to you that I posted the question because I wanted to know?
          I'm sorry I was a thoughtless prick.[/fixed]

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            #55
            In fairness to people who don't pay much attention, the national media think it's absolutely fine to continue to go over this ground, perpetuating the same both-sidesism as they do with climate change. I'm not sure they're actually capable of doing anything else. Looks like TV viewers who may or may not have previously had an opinion on the existence of trans people might get to hear Piers Morgan's thoughts tomorrow!

            https://twitter.com/BeffernieBlack/status/1171438865321578499

            Anyway, I don't want this to get like the climate change thread which was regularly interrupted by "CLIMATE CHANGE IS FAKE HERE ARE THE GRAPHS" so if anyone else is tempted to post tedious "trans ppl r icky" stuff, please refer to my replies upthread and try to stop being obnoxious. Plenty of cis people have managed this when they've looked more closely. Also, basically asking people to prove in some unspecified way that they are not deceitful predators is, in my opinion, straight up trolling, and just because the TV and newspaper people repeatedly do it doesn't mean that you should too.

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              #56
              This is a positive (if not necessarily hugely world changing) piece of news https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...e_iOSApp_Other

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                #57
                Originally posted by Stumpy Pepys View Post
                Did it occur to you that I posted the question because I wanted to know?
                Here's some resources on prisons and trans people. You'll probably find the answers you're after here but you'll actually have to do the work yourself rather than asking marginalised people to do it.
                https://www.bentbarsproject.org/resources?tid=9

                I'm gonna assume you genuinely don't understand how it looks to blunder into a discussion by announcing your "issue with the focus on trans rights" then demanding that a trans woman educate you, and like the public discourse on this is so poisoned that might very well be true.

                But it's really not a fair or acceptable thing to do.
                Last edited by Bizarre Löw Triangle; 12-09-2019, 09:19.

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                  #58
                  Has anyone ever successfully made the argument (from a logical point of view) that granting rights to outgroup A is going to negatively affect the rights of outgroup B? Is this in all cases a divide and rule logic in that it presupposes a finite amount of societal respect and support, and giving rights to A subtracts from the amount available for B? It certainly seems to fall apart when you remember that the rights that have been grudgingly granted to outgroup B have been granted grudgingly on the basis of equality. so any argument seeking to defend the rights of outgroup B, through inequality is also necessarily self-defeating?

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                    #59
                    What do you mean by "successfully"?

                    Given that (much to toro's dismay) political arguments are not scored by debate judges, the fact that the argument has consistently won at least some votes is a certain sign of success.

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                      #60
                      It must have worked at least once for people to still be trying it. To be honest you hear this argument so often that I can kind of see why you can hear people making it, unaware that they are making a bad faith argument in good faith. It's kind of a meme in the original sense. Just a particular type of argument, waiting to have details attached to it for use. You heard it here at the time of the marriage referendum, but it burnt up like icarus, because moderators/interviewers always asked the person making it, how in the name of god allowing gay people to get married impacted negatively on anyone or indeed for that matter, how any individual marriage, impacted on another marriage? There is no good answer to that, certainly not one you'd like to say on television.

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                        #61
                        That presumes good faith interviewing, which is increasingly rare here (and in the UK, it seems).

                        Which is why anti-marriage equality arguments over here nearly always reference bestiality.

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                          #62
                          Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
                          It's a mixed bag with gender neutral toilets. In London / South East I'd say about fifty fifty are gender neutral. The far bigger issue as far as I'm concerned is when they don't put the baby change area in a gender neutral toilet, but stick it in the female toilets instead. Like men never have to change a baby's nappy. It's medieval.
                          Me and Ms Etienne shared baby changing pretty evenly, except when we were in places which only had changing facilities in the female toilets. Then it was me who had to do it, just so we could put them on the spot about how exactly a dad was going to change a nappy.

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                            #63
                            Is it me, or does this article have a really odd title? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49447918

                            Neither Kylie nor cocktails is mentioned at all in the article, and why would they be associated with trans pride anyway?

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                              #64
                              Stupid, but

                              Lucia wants the event to be like Pride marches in the eighties - which took place during the AIDS crisis.

                              "Marchers went out there to create social change. They didn't go out there to see Kylie Minogue and have a few cocktails."

                              Kylie Minogue headlined Brighton Pride this year, where trans people were part of the march and had their own space.

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                                #65
                                Oh, I completely missed that when I read the article. Still a weird title though.

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                                  #66
                                  So yeah, there's been some miserable shit recently. A thing called the LGB Alliance, which is basically a handful of people with media access going "We made a nice shiny gay treehouse without those smelly transes". I'd like to just laugh it off but the usual suspects get excited about it and try to make it a Thing and I have to hear about it if I want to read the bloody news. Took 'em about two hours to start being biphobic too, in their 'LGB Alliance'. I can't be arsed to dig out links on this, sorry, it brings me down.

                                  I really re-upped this thread to talk about something nice and how people, given sufficient motivation and honesty, can change their views. Four years ago my mum was screaming at me about changing my name and how she gave birth to me and I'd never give birth and this is all a load of crap and miserable stuff like that. I basically told her that I wasn't going to argue with her and she had to deal with it. So she did. We've got on really well for a couple of years - I speak to her at least once a week, often more often - and it appears she's now comfortable enough to tell people that she has a trans daughter and how I am and stuff. And she calls me by name (to be fair, I made this easy for everybody by adopting the feminine version of my previous name, but not many people took the hint). So that's good!

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                                    #67
                                    Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                                    I really re-upped this thread to talk about something nice and how people, given sufficient motivation and honesty, can change their views. Four years ago my mum was screaming at me about changing my name and how she gave birth to me and I'd never give birth and this is all a load of crap and miserable stuff like that. I basically told her that I wasn't going to argue with her and she had to deal with it. So she did. We've got on really well for a couple of years - I speak to her at least once a week, often more often - and it appears she's now comfortable enough to tell people that she has a trans daughter and how I am and stuff. And she calls me by name (to be fair, I made this easy for everybody by adopting the feminine version of my previous name, but not many people took the hint). So that's good!
                                    Very happy for you, DM. I can't imagine what a struggle it must have been to have to deal with that.

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                                      #68
                                      So pleased to hear this, DM. Has cheered me up immensely. I am deeply sorry you were trolled upthread in OTF of all places.

                                      I teach in a county in Florida that does not protect LGBT persons from employment discrimination and my students are always horrified when I make them aware of that fact. Desperately hope the Supreme Court recognizes that this failure to protect is unconstitutional.
                                      Last edited by Satchmo Distel; 30-10-2019, 20:03.

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                                        #69
                                        In an established commentariat I sometimes post in two trans people have been having an argument. One says they should be vocal and out as trans. The other says they are sick of being told what they "ought" to be all the time especially by other trans people. Both people are respected parts of that community. Both have been advised by the mods to back away from the argument before they say something hurtful. I can see both have valid points. It's a bit awkward really. It feels like they are both a bit right and a bit wrong.

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                                          #70
                                          We don't expect all feminists to agree on everything (or we didn't), nor all PoC, so can't expect all trans people to agree, I'd say.

                                          Not every gay person is comfortable being out and proud. Thinking about two of my neighbours, who live next to one another. I've known them both for 20 years. One is very out and very proud and tells everyone about his sex life, the other (we'll call him Michael) is *technically* in the closet, despite having Hackney's Gayest Man banging away on one side and a two gay couples (one MM, one FF) living upstairs from him, and it being Hackney and all. None of our group of neighbours/friends approach the subject with Michael.

                                          Do gay or trans people have a responsibility to stand up and be counted?

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                                            #71
                                            Well that's what these two were arguing about. One said definitely yes, the other said leave me alone.

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                                              #72
                                              Not everyone is comfortable in that way, either from their innate personality or their experiences or whatever. I'm a shy person, I'd rather die than do some things that other people think are quite normal. My eldest sister was (is, I should say) gay and forbade me to tell any other members of the family, even though she was (is) long grown-up and in Australia, and they'd mostly guessed anyway but because we're repressed ex-Catholics we don't talk about stuff like that.

                                              The abortion debate would be helped a lot if women who'd all had abortions came out and said so. The majority of my female friends have had at least one abortion. Very few women are keen to wave the flag for it.
                                              Last edited by MsD; 31-10-2019, 09:24.

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                                                #73
                                                DM, really happy for you and your Mum. I remember back when things were really bad between you so this is lovely news.

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                                                  #74
                                                  Originally posted by MsD View Post
                                                  The abortion debate would be helped a lot if women who'd all had abortions came out and said so. The majority of my female friends have had at least one abortion. Very few women are keen to wave the flag for it.
                                                  Very much this. I've not had an abortion, but I've twice taken the morning after pill in circumstances where I could easily have become pregnant (and later life experiences have taught me that I was very sensible to take the pill as I fall pregnant very swiftly). Timing is the only significant difference between the two.



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                                                    #75
                                                    i'm really happy for you delicatemoth, and well done your mum too. Also thanks for this thread, and for updating it with your good news x

                                                    It's quite complicated, being intorverted and 'out' at the same time, for 'out' is a terrifying movement towards the external. It has taken me some time to find a comfortable balance between my natural quietness/inauspiciousness and the open, unapologetic attitude (which i would call pride) i feel with regard to being gay in public. At first it seems like there are only two ways to manage one's engagement with others and their expectations: the closet, or the kind of disarming, upfront, in-your-face behaviour that i don't enjoy performing in any facet of life. But in the end, and thanks to generations of activists who preceded me, there's a much greater scope for living with pride, as noisily or as quietly as one wishes, without feeling like one is betraying the cause (and one's self, and loved ones). i think the key is probably to get offline, where the volume is less loud, and the people one meets are messier and more interesting. Of course that's not always easy, or possible, but i do think it's vital that the resources are available, in three dimensions, for people to see what a 'community' feels like and how it functions, and at least to be able to imagine joining it.

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