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    The ttraaaanzzz lyffe and TTijmes

    Thread on topics of interest to me and others.

    So, Katelyn Burns, who is a fine journalist, has written a detailed piece about the links between 'gender critical' self-styled 'progressive' types and the conservative Right:-

    https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...ender-critical

    Some of the people who apparently wish to debate trans folk's rights have criticised the article in their idiosyncratic style (CW for unsettling nastiness):-

    https://twitter.com/transscribe/stat...91561305120773

    #2
    Extremely harrowing threads about ill treatment within healthcare settings, major content warnings - https://twitter.com/robin__craig/sta...18197082050561

    I thought very hard before posting this as I am wary of exposing people to attention they might not want - then again they tweeted it and I retweeted it because these are important matters and we can't honestly stay silent. Anyone who wishes to share personal accounts elsewhere just needs to be mindful about who is likely to see them.

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      #3
      Thanks DM. Haven't ventured into the twitter threads, but the article was well worth reading

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        #4
        The Twitter threads are profoundly depressing, but important nonetheless.

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          #5
          The GIC has just committed a serious data breach and sent an email to a very large amount of people (I could actually fucking count them but it would take a long time) with the recipients' email addresses attached. People have occasionally asked why I don't just use my legal name on forums/social media/email addresses, this is one reason why.

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            #6
            Jeezus Christ

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              #7
              Thatís unforgivable.

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                #8
                Originally posted by delicatemoth View Post
                The GIC has just committed a serious data breach and sent an email to a very large amount of people (I could actually fucking count them but it would take a long time) with the recipients' email addresses attached. People have occasionally asked why I don't just use my legal name on forums/social media/email addresses, this is one reason why.
                I'm sorry, what's the GIC?

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                  #9
                  https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1170017426593001472

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                    #10
                    I hope this is the right place and I feel conscious of being on ground where I feel profoundly ignorant:
                    Robertson and Stone’s advocacy led to the successful 2013 challenge to the family court’s jurisdiction on making early medical decisions for transgender youth

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                      #11
                      It is, yeah. Don't be shy to post stuff, if you use your critical faculties when reading an article you should be able to work out if it's genuine or clickbait (or just bait).

                      BTW, Guardian Australia and Guardian US don't have the transphobia problem the British one has and writers at both have issued statements expressing concern about their parent paper. Most of the rest of the world thinks Britain is weird about this. (This doesn't mean that the UK Guardian is universally terrible, just that you should be very suspicious of it, especially 'opinion' pieces. The Times is the paper that's probably irredeemable, it's as hateful as the Express and considerably more targeted).

                      I should delete my sodding email account, shouldn't I? That's my 'secure', non-spam one as well, the one I use for important correspondence. Like corresponding with the sodding GIC. Oh yeah, the email addresses were attached to an important email promoting an Art Competition.

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                        #12
                        Sorry, that's awful.

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                          #13
                          Every time I read an article about terfs, I keep thinking there's something I'm missing. Is their essential position that they have a really rigid idea of what is a man and what is a woman, and anyone who suggests otherwise is wrong/evil, and anyone who says that they don't fit in those two categories are lesbians who have been brainwashed by the patriarchy, or men trying to rape women in toilets, and therefore should be ignored, and re-educated to conform.

                          is that it? because I don't want to have some kind of straw man idea in my head, because there might be one or two problems with this position that they might seek to reconsider.

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                            #14
                            There's a third category, which is "men" seeking to win women's sporting competitions.

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                              #15
                              My mum keeps coming out with lots of terrible terf nonsense that she's picked up from various papers, which I try to counteract as much as possible. She does have a slightly more nuanced position though. She thinks:

                              a) gender roles should not be so rigid. Men should be allowed to wear dresses without having to become women. Women should be allowed to be builders or wear suits without becoming men. Society should be more accepting of pluralistic gender expressions. This is generally true, but has nothing to do with trans people.

                              b) she thinks that many people experiment with gender roles during their teens, but later revert to their 'traditional' gender after puberty. She thinks over-medicalisation is cementing choices that might have been transitory. She regularly brings up the case of a male friend of mine from sixth form who used to wear dresses at my parties but is now often seen in traditional male attire for work. My explanation that he is a gay man who enjoys cross-dressing, but is willing to conform to hold down a job, not in any way a trans person, falls on deaf ears.

                              c) she thinks that some people are influenced by greater awareness of trans people and choose to become trans to seem 'interesting'. I cannot imagine anyone choosing that level of added complexity for their life.

                              d) she thinks some predatory males choose to become trans women in order to access female-only spaces. I don't even know where to begin in combating that belief.

                              e) she objects to male-to-female trans people on the basis that being a woman is presented as an identity that is worn only as an outer shell, and doesn't address the complexity of growing up as a girl, experiencing discrimination, enduring periods, breastbudding, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, the menopause, and all the hormonal baggage that 'natural' women carry. I have a very small amount of sympathy for this point, but it is incredibly existentialist and ignores the plurality of female experience. Clearly not all women give birth, not all women grow breasts, not all women have periods, etc, so why is she trying to narrow the definition of 'woman'?

                              My mum is an intelligent, generally liberal person, so it has shocked me to hear some of the anger she is projecting towards a group of people who she has very little direct interaction with. But dismissing her concerns as a 'straw man' wouldn't fully address them.

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                                #16
                                so is that broadly it? Essentially they are saying that there are two types of birds in the world, Robins and crows, and any one who suggests otherwise is bad and wrong, and kestrels and puffins are merely deluded and brainwashed robins and crows, that need to get with the programme? so Its essentially a position made up of an inaccurately restrictive understanding of an obviously complicated situation, combined with a total inability to accept a dissenting position, combined with a demonization of the people who don't fit their schema.

                                I've got to say, we've been down this road before. Some of Us a lot further than others. I thought we had agreed that this sort of thing was just stupid and bad.

                                But dismissing her concerns as a 'straw man' wouldn't fully address them.

                                No It was that I didn't want to have a straw man idea of what they were saying.
                                Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 07-09-2019, 20:42.

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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Balderdasha View Post
                                  My mum keeps coming out with lots of terrible terf nonsense that she's picked up from various papers, which I try to counteract as much as possible. She does have a slightly more nuanced position though. She thinks:

                                  a) gender roles should not be so rigid. Men should be allowed to wear dresses without having to become women. Women should be allowed to be builders or wear suits without becoming men. Society should be more accepting of pluralistic gender expressions. This is generally true, but has nothing to do with trans people.

                                  b) she thinks that many people experiment with gender roles during their teens, but later revert to their 'traditional' gender after puberty. She thinks over-medicalisation is cementing choices that might have been transitory. She regularly brings up the case of a male friend of mine from sixth form who used to wear dresses at my parties but is now often seen in traditional male attire for work. My explanation that he is a gay man who enjoys cross-dressing, but is willing to conform to hold down a job, not in any way a trans person, falls on deaf ears.

                                  c) she thinks that some people are influenced by greater awareness of trans people and choose to become trans to seem 'interesting'. I cannot imagine anyone choosing that level of added complexity for their life.

                                  d) she thinks some predatory males choose to become trans women in order to access female-only spaces. I don't even know where to begin in combating that belief.

                                  e) she objects to male-to-female trans people on the basis that being a woman is presented as an identity that is worn only as an outer shell, and doesn't address the complexity of growing up as a girl, experiencing discrimination, enduring periods, breastbudding, pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, the menopause, and all the hormonal baggage that 'natural' women carry. I have a very small amount of sympathy for this point, but it is incredibly existentialist and ignores the plurality of female experience. Clearly not all women give birth, not all women grow breasts, not all women have periods, etc, so why is she trying to narrow the definition of 'woman'?

                                  My mum is an intelligent, generally liberal person, so it has shocked me to hear some of the anger she is projecting towards a group of people who she has very little direct interaction with. But dismissing her concerns as a 'straw man' wouldn't fully address them.
                                  I suspect many people of my age hold opinions 'a' through 'c,' though I've never done a personal poll. 'd' and 'e' seem a little more idiosyncratic.

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                                    #18
                                    People of our age who believe they have had no contact with trans or non-binary people.

                                    A generation ago, there were similar people with the same belief about having had no contact with gay people.

                                    e) seems to me to be quite important among UK TERF activists.

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                                      #19
                                      By the way, there are a number of very enlightening posts on the reasons for the UK's exceptionalism in this respect on the Piers Morgan Transphobe thread

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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                        People of our age who believe they have had no contact with trans or non-binary people.

                                        A generation ago, there were similar people with the same belief about having had no contact with gay people.
                                        Probably. Though there must be fewer people in those categories every day.

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                                          #21
                                          I'm not sure that the numbers are shrinking as fast as you would think, particularly among the comfortable, who seem to me to be increasingly inclined to live in a way that tries very hard to eliminate any exposure to people or ideas that challenge their worldview (though I appreciate that his is much more prevalent in the US than it is in Canada).

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                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                            People of our age who believe they have had no contact with trans or non-binary people.

                                            A generation ago, there were similar people with the same belief about having had no contact with gay people.

                                            e) seems to me to be quite important among UK TERF activists.
                                            I must say that my awareness or contact with trans or non-binary people is super limited. I mean there's DM on here, er, Eddie Izzard has been my favourite comedian since I was 12, and I saw a trans woman in my local supermarket about three months ago. and that's basically it. And I've only really lived in Dublin, London and Galway over the last 20 years. The Only non-binary person that I know that I have spoken to, is now 5 years old.

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                                              #23
                                              I would be willing to bet a good deal of money that you have had contact with more such people than you realise

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                                                #24
                                                I'm not sure that the numbers are shrinking as fast as you would think, particularly among the comfortable, who seem to me to be increasingly inclined to live in a way that tries very hard to eliminate any exposure to people or ideas that challenge their worldview (though I appreciate that his is much more prevalent in the US than it is in Canada).


                                                Maybe, though there are occasions when such exposures are almost inevitable. For example La Signora has gone to the same hairdresser for about fifteen years. It's a relatively expensive, well established business on the west side of Vancouver. During that time not only has ownership changed (from a gay man, to a female couple) but also three of the hairdressers have gone through transformation. Their customers watched these happen during their visits. Perhaps some were disturbed, or upset, and left, but overall it doesn't seem to have affected their trade. If anything they're busier now than a few years ago. I realise this isn't conclusive proof of anything, but it is the way acceptance and understanding can come about. Through ordinary, everyday interactions.
                                                Last edited by Amor de Cosmos; 07-09-2019, 21:07.

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                                                  #25
                                                  Absolutely agree, but Vancouver is very, very different than gated communities in the exurbs of Arizona, Texas or Florida

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