A better term than "homophobia"?

[Patrick Thistle]

So my friend Mel* is gay. She was telling me today about something that happened at a wedding at the weekend. She met an old uni friend's new boyfriend for the first time who promptly told her "I love lesbians!"

Mel thought that was a bit odd. Her words: "Why? Some of them are wankers." Anyway fast forward to the end of the night and she's saying goodbye to her uni friend and boyfriend, who is a bit drunk and again blurts out "I love lesbians!" But this time added "I'd watch you in porn!"

Mel apparently said "What?" (and believe me when she asks that you know you done gone fucked up big time because she asks it with attitude) and the guy hurriedly went "nothing, nothing" but her unifriend was apparently mortified by it. And Mel and her wife decided it was now definitely time to leave.

So as she told me I was quite shocked. She says she's not sure whether homophobia is the right word for that. I think it's offensiveness based on her sexual orientation. I don't think that guy would say that to a heterosexual woman or couple, and it is grossly crass. So if it's offensive and aimed at her because she is gay I said that qualified it as homophobia to me, anyway.

But is there a better word to describe that kind of behaviour? I'd like to know in case similar discussions arise.


*not really her name

[delicatemoth]

Well there's a big gross load of misogyny in there as well. I mean there always is if someone's baiting a lesbian, but that seems to be the main angle of attack here. Hope her friend dumped him quicksmart.

[ursus arctos]

Toxic masculinity is an unfortunately broad church, but this is a damn good example

[Satchmo Distel]

I think the guy probably would find a way to belittle heterosexual women as well so would agree that misogyny is the main trait in this case. He's an objectifier who thinks women are just there to entertain him.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

It's a compliment in the way that singing about romelu lukaku's penis was supposed to be a compliment. He liked that about as much as Mel enjoyed this.

It's hard to focus on the homophobia side of it so much though, because the objectification element burns so brightly

[G-Man]

Assuming that he wasn't trying to troll the woman, and perhaps even thought that her was paying a compliment, what response was that guy looking for? "Ah, me in a porn movie? You're too sweet"? An invitation to a live demonstration?

The mind boggles.

[Patrick Thistle]

Thanks all. Yes, misogynist is a good working term for it.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

there's definitely got to be a more precise term for that general sort of freaking someone out by paying them an inappropriate compliment that reinforces some power dynamic. i.e. ("Oh I love the Irish, Do the accent do the accent") (Oh I love jews, you're so good at numbers/we need you to start the rapture) Because people are going to focus on the "but it's a compliment bit)

[Nocturnal Submission]

The guy sounds like a drunken creep. I'm not sure that there's much more to it than that.

[pebblethefish]

To me homophobia is a poor word anyway. A phobia is an irrational fear, and something that the sufferer can't help, and doesn't want to have. The only word of that that applies in this instance is irrational.

[Jah Womble]

That guy wasn't paying anyone 'a compliment', whether a crass one or otherwise. It was objectification, sure, but it was first and foremost demeaning. discriminating and offensive: his trigger is clearly that 'gay women = pornography' - which merely shows up how shallow and out-of-touch his world view is. (And it can be regarded as homophobia, yes.)

The two girls beaten up on the bus recently were victims of a very extreme form of the same thing.

[G-Man]

And yet, I'll defend the use of the word homophobia, because homophobes use the etymology of term to deny criticism of their bigotry in total* (usually with a reference to the word "gay" as well). I'd be sorry to see the bigots being pandered to. Besides, there's a notion that many homophobes are that way exactly because of an irrational fear of homosexuality, the source of which they have difficulty identifying. If so, then homophobia is an apt term foir their condition.

* They'll either nitpick that they don't fear homosexuals so how can it be a phobia, a point perhaps spiced up by how they don't run away in fear when A Gay approaches them. Or they'll say that literally homophobia means "fear of human beings" and they love humans beings LOL so they can't be homophobic.

[E10 Rifle]

It also reinforces the notion of women existing in order to do things for male pleasure and approval.

[Jah Womble]

Yep, agree with G-Man that 'homophobia' is a reasonable expression in that it identifies a weakness in the person displaying it.

[Bizarre Löw Triangle]

So my friend Mel* is gay. She was telling me today about something that happened at a wedding at the weekend. She met an old uni friend's new boyfriend for the first time who promptly told her "I love lesbians!"

Mel thought that was a bit odd. Her words: "Why? Some of them are wankers." Anyway fast forward to the end of the night and she's saying goodbye to her uni friend and boyfriend, who is a bit drunk and again blurts out "I love lesbians!" But this time added "I'd watch you in porn!"

Mel apparently said "What?" (and believe me when she asks that you know you done gone fucked up big time because she asks it with attitude) and the guy hurriedly went "nothing, nothing" but her unifriend was apparently mortified by it. And Mel and her wife decided it was now definitely time to leave.

So as she told me I was quite shocked. She says she's not sure whether homophobia is the right word for that. I think it's offensiveness based on her sexual orientation. I don't think that guy would say that to a heterosexual woman or couple, and it is grossly crass. So if it's offensive and aimed at her because she is gay I said that qualified it as homophobia to me, anyway.

But is there a better word to describe that kind of behaviour? I'd like to know in case similar discussions arise.


*not really her name

It's definitely homophobia, and normally the term used is "fetishisation". Essentially it's a practice of dehumanisation by turning marginalised people into objects of a sexual fetish. It's often brought up in the context of racial dynamics - as it's been a core component of racism (think the Hottentot Venus, but also how black men were presented as inherently sexual and thus needed to be controlled), but obviously this is an example of it in a homophobic and misogynistic context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual...#Fetishisation

It's important to acknowledge that the fetishisation of marginalised people is explicitly linked to systematic violence against them - from slavery to sexual violence.

[Wouter D]

The Drunk Dick:
- 5 parts idiocy
- 2 parts inebriation
- 3 parts homophobia
Best served hidden away under a rock

[Patrick Thistle]

It's definitely homophobia, and normally the term used is "fetishisation". Essentially it's a practice of dehumanisation by turning marginalised people into objects of a sexual fetish. It's often brought up in the context of racial dynamics - as it's been a core component of racism (think the Hottentot Venus, but also how black men were presented as inherently sexual and thus needed to be controlled), but obviously this is an example of it in a homophobic and misogynistic context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual...#Fetishisation

It's important to acknowledge that the fetishisation of marginalised people is explicitly linked to systematic violence against them - from slavery to sexual violence.

That is exactly the kind of explanation I was looking for when I posted about this. Thanks BLT.

Thanks everyone else who has contributed as well.

[laverte]

I'd be interested in laverte's take on this (assuming she's still around these parts?).

Yes, i'm still lurking! It's nice to be thought of as an authority, but i can't add much of interest to what's already been said, especially BLT's contribution. There are lots of different ways to do homophobia, and no single example can contain all of the possible variants, so it's always possible for the practitioner to find ways in which an utterance or behaviour does not fit their definition of homophobia. Focusing on the etymology of the word itself is a common one. It's a big red flag. In any case, you can trust a lesbian to recognise lesbophobia*, or to have a good idea of how likely it is that that's where a situation is heading. Mel sounds like she is sorted in that respect (and others).

The remark about porn seems to be very common in the internet era, but was much less so back in the day, when lesbians had a reputation for being hideous and angry, and men's fantasies about them were more frequently of the "corrective rape" kind. Nonetheless it highlights one of the core elements of homophobia, which has been discussed above as 'fetishisation' or 'objectification', and is inherent in misogyny, but has not been fully spelled out: the reduction of a (gay) person to their sexuality. Their existence can only be understood (by the homophobe) in terms of their sexuality, and that sexuality only makes sense in relation to the homophobe's own values, desires and sexual persona. Note that the man at the wedding begins both of his comments with "I". He centres himself. He loves lesbians only to the extent that he can find some way of fitting his ideas about them into his existing worldview. He loves himself, basically, and if some lesbians would care to join him in celebrating his own remarkableness, he would doubtless be honoured. But the only way to do that would be to sleep with him. Because that's what marks a lesbian out. They have sex. They are sex.

his second remark begins in that conditional tense: "I would." The two words by themselves have become a byword for hetero men centring their sexuality, projecting it onto every woman, every image of a woman, so overwhelmingly that they don't even need to say what it is that they would do. "I would" contains all that is repugnant about phallocentrism and male supremacy, not just the uncalled for thrusting of groin but also the patheticness of it, the whininess of the unforgotten spotty 14-year-old living on in a recess of the adult brain, the pathos-free tragedy of the unfulfillable fantasy.

Yeah, this guy has got issues.

Now, on a related note, i sometimes hear straight women, especially of a light-feminist bent, say that they wish they were gay, because it's a bit of a headfuck to be sexually attracted to one's political oppressor/enemy. This is a different form of "I love lesbians", and almost as annoying. If i'm feeling bold, i tend to reply by asking them if they'd be prepared to abandon their faith, accept the estrangement of their parents, and deny themselves a career out of a fear of homophobia, and to point out that my sexuality is probably no less guilt-free or hang-up free than theirs.

*Lesbophobia seems a more precise fit than homophobia here, as the crap porn fantasy only really projects onto gay women. But i'm sure a gay man would recognise the "i love gays" stuff, probably to be followed by an impression of a mincing celebrity or a lecture about how much the person loves Drag race and Eurovision.

[Patrick Thistle]

Thanks laverte. That's all made me think a bit more.

[MsD]

Yes, fine and thoughtful contribution as always.

A few thoughts from me:

1. straight women get this from men all the time, I've had it since puberty and am still getting it (a bit) at 60. I've said many a time men should just carry around a set of scorecards they can hold up, in case we're wearing headphones or something. It ranges from just telling me I'm looking good or not, to more sexual stuff either said to me or about me within my hearing. I think the "lesbians = porn" is just like "women = porn" with the slight twist that in the former case they might think they're being liberal or doing you a favour. "Hey, I'd still shag you!" and I've had that, an'all.

2. #notallmen #notallmen #notallmen absolutely, just enough of them. I don't think every man who talks to me or smiles at me is trying it on, far from it, but particularly in my youth, I couldn't leave the house without men telling me what they'd like to do to me and it wasn't safe at work (in a normal office) either.

3. I've been guilty of saying, when asked if I'm gay or bisexual, "No ... sadly." I don't really wish I was gay, as laverte says, it comes with a whole other set of stuff to deal with, and I know from having lesbian friends and a lesbian sister that lesbian relationships aren't all conflict-free. If it wasn't obvious. What I mean when I say "no ... sadly" is just, without thinking, that I have a lot of lovely female friends. I will think before saying it again. (Actually, no-one's asked for a long time except for the sort of blokes who pester and then say "wot, are u a lezzer?".)

4. My male friend down the road, who proudly declares himself the gayest man in Clapton, wrote on Facebook a while ago "Still fucking fuming. Which bit of "no I don't want a hug" do creepy straight people not understand? I'm not here to make you feel cool", which was followed by a discussion from gay friends who get the same treatment. He's really not the huggy type, I get to kiss him on the cheek on special occasions, as I've known him for 20 years, but never a full body hug, which I don't like either.

[diggedy derek]

Othering? I know that's not very catchy, but...

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

It's definitely homophobia, and normally the term used is "fetishisation". Essentially it's a practice of dehumanisation by turning marginalised people into objects of a sexual fetish. It's often brought up in the context of racial dynamics - as it's been a core component of racism (think the Hottentot Venus, but also how black men were presented as inherently sexual and thus needed to be controlled), but obviously this is an example of it in a homophobic and misogynistic context.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual...#Fetishisation

It's important to acknowledge that the fetishisation of marginalised people is explicitly linked to systematic violence against them - from slavery to sexual violence.

This is the term I was looking for. This is the thing that was being directed at lukaku (Divock Origi would be familiar with this as well) The last bit is particularly key. It would be fascinating to go on a trawl through the internet history of all of these policemen who wind up shooting black people. Interracial cuckold porn is one of the most popular genres every year in the national Pornhub 'survey'. The links between this and White supremacy would be very knotty knots to untangle.

[Balderdasha]

This reminds me of a friend of mine who had a conversation with her dad after bringing her then girlfriend, now wife, home for the first time.

Her dad was a bit tipsy and confessed that he had been very worried that he would fancy my friend's girlfriend because all he knew about her was that she was a Swedish lesbian. But now, having met her, he didn't fancy her at all, so it was totally fine.

My friend didn't really know where to start with unpicking the many, many, many things wrong with that interaction.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

I wish I hadn't read that. That is so........ eewwwwww

[laverte]

Thanks, MsD. Lots of good points you make, and thank you for putting my observations in context. i'm lucky to have experienced very little of 1&2, so i'm sure i underestimate the frequency, or banality, of that kind of remark. i should think a good 50% of the comments i've ever received about how i look have come from my mother, whose scorecard shows a perpetual zero. And she knew how to get inside my earphones.

3. I've been guilty of saying, when asked if I'm gay or bisexual, "No ... sadly." I don't really wish I was gay, as laverte says, it comes with a whole other set of stuff to deal with, and I know from having lesbian friends and a lesbian sister that lesbian relationships aren't all conflict-free. If it wasn't obvious. What I mean when I say "no ... sadly" is just, without thinking, that I have a lot of lovely female friends. I will think before saying it again.

i think that's a different case from what i was trying to get at when i made my rather sweeping statement upthread. Here you're expressing love for your girlfriends, and showing that it feels as profound and multifaceted as the love you feel for (putative) sex partners. But the sexual element is not quite there somehow, in a way that bemuses you, because sexuality* is weird like that. i would read that as a very supportive position. You're making the case for love between women being real and valuable and destabilising, but by drawing attention to the limits of how it expresses itself, you're challenging the idea that women's sexuality is endlessly fluid, that sexual desire is just something we tack onto an overriding romantic or caring impulse, that we don't really know what we want and can be carried with the breeze. (i'm bisexual and this applies particularly.) To me, that's quite different from a position which implicitly or explicitly claims it would be simpler to be gay, and thus makes some kind of obnoxious assertion that lesbians have it easy, or that our love is pure and free of contradiction.

*or our concept of what various kinds of love ought to feel like