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    Norman Stone obituary

    Not sure whether this belonged in Books or World, but here goes.

    Marina Hyde, retweeting a tweet by a chap called Chris Cook, has drawn attention to this crackingly frank Guardian obituary of Stone.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...stone-obituary

    It reminds me of reading, many years ago, an interesting report by a Turkey-based former OTFer whose handle was something like Treandefiligan (?) of a few hours spent in the increasingly drunken and offensive company of Stone in Istanbul. I think that OTFer flounced a year or two later.

    #2
    I wonder whether it might belong in the narcissists thread.

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      #3
      AKA Spock na Escada.

      He's missed.

      And I can't find the post because he took some pains to alter the name in question.

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        #4
        Just read the obit. It's very funny.

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          #5
          That is a pretty devastating assessment and, given that obituaries tend to accentuate such positives as there are, leaves open the possibility that he was even worse in life.

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            #6
            Stone was invited over by the History Students Society when I was at Dublin Uni. The best anecdote was about him arriving home drunk to his Oxford digs, finding his wife and mistress in bed together, then offering to join in

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              #7
              I briefly knew one of his sons, who was very nice but had very clearly gone through the kind of childhood you never really recover from.

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                #8
                Someone enjoyed writing that. Someone really enjoyed it. I certainly enjoyed reading it. I tried to read one of his books once, and hurled it to one side. I'm not sure that the first couple of chapters of a history book are supposed to fill you with dislike for the historian. It was an odd premise for a book.

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                  #9
                  That's how you do obituaries! The writer lands his punches with flourishes, of course, but those little kicks are especially delightful.

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                    #10
                    Reading that obituary and thinking that never was this GIF more appropriate.


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                      #11
                      You can't have a culture of respect for the recently deceased, If you can't say anything about them while they were alive.

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                        #12
                        I've read some terrific obituaries over the years. I remember one guy's saying that his finest moment was persuading his local brownie group, anxious to take on the cubs and their "bob-a-job" offer, that their "willing for a shilling" campaign was a poor idea. Another guy, who seems to have been some sort of anti-quango protester in the 1960s, apparently made the Tomato and Cucumber Marketing Board a national laughing stock.

                        Then there was a British airman who was part of some RAF campaign in Afghanistan or Iraq in the 1920s. His plane had made an emergency landing and a group of enraged locals were rushing towards him. Their MO was to first castrate their enemies and take it from there. Bit of pressure then. He repaired his plane, hopped in and flew off excitingly shortly before the locals arrived.

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                          #13
                          I was thinking about that respect for the dead stuff whole reading that obit. In some South African cultures, it is taboo to speak ill of the dead -- until they are buried. Personally, I don't subscribe to that point of view. Tramp down the dirt.

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                            #14
                            That Stone obituary is one of the most openly hostile that I've ever read. In the Hugh Massingberd/Telegraph style of irreverent obit the editorial approach was generally positive. The reader might disagree, one person's colourful rascal being another's dangerous criminal, but room for interpretation was left open.

                            He does seem to have been an outstandingly horrible person though.

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
                              I've read some terrific obituaries over the years. I remember one guy's saying that his finest moment was persuading his local brownie group, anxious to take on the cubs and their "bob-a-job" offer, that their "willing for a shilling" campaign was a poor idea. Another guy, who seems to have been some sort of anti-quango protester in the 1960s, apparently made the Tomato and Cucumber Marketing Board a national laughing stock.

                              Then there was a British airman who was part of some RAF campaign in Afghanistan or Iraq in the 1920s. His plane had made an emergency landing and a group of enraged locals were rushing towards him. Their MO was to first castrate their enemies and take it from there. Bit of pressure then. He repaired his plane, hopped in and flew off excitingly shortly before the locals arrived.
                              Of course the RAF MO was to bomb the shit out of people. The first bombs dropped from an aircraft were British bombs in Iraq

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                                #16
                                Sorry, I thought this was the interesting anecdotes in obituaries thread not the wars are grim one.

                                I presume that you're OK with the RAF bombing the shit out of the Wehrmacht in WWII and then flying in supplies to Berlin shortly afterwards?

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                                  #17
                                  I think much of the RAF bombing of Germany wasn’t of the Wehrmacht but was of cities like Hamburg & Dresden when the war was already won and in which hundreds of thousands of civilians are slaughtered. Since you brought it up.

                                  how you think that point is in any way relevant to the colonial bombing of Iraq by the British in the early years of the 20th Century to secure the supply of oil for the Anglo-Persian oil company-later BP I have no idea.

                                  disappointed (though not entirely surprised) you find a racist anecdote about how foreigners would castrate British airmen “interesting” and not “ grim”

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                                    #18
                                    You said that "the RAF MO was to bomb the shit out of people" so I pointed out that, on certain occasions, it was to general acclaim and that, on other occasions, their role was to supply humanitarian aid. I specifically referred to their attacks on the German army. I called Paddy Power to take my bet that you would mention Dresden in your hissy response but sadly the odds I was offered were so poor that it wasn't worth the outlay.

                                    As I said, my reply was to your blanket condemnation of the actions of the RAF.

                                    Only you, of course, could jump on an anecdote of something that happened almost 100 years ago and turn it into an argument. And there's the snide insinuation and the misrepresentation as per.

                                    Oh hang, you're channeling Norman Stone!!! I almost missed that!!!

                                    That really is very good.

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                                      #19
                                      DoTYou were talking about Iraq and Afghanistan where you talked about the locals MO -my remark about the RAF MO was referring to the same context.

                                      Only you could find it somehow “ light -hearted “ to tell an anecdote which involved colonialism bombing racism and castration fantasies

                                      im not surprised to hear you had a bet with Paddy Power- their tedious laddishness would be right up your street. In two days in February 1945 the American and British airforce killed someone in the region of 25000 people.

                                      The Hamburg fire storm killed considerably more. Hilarious.

                                      Last edited by Nefertiti2; 26-06-2019, 23:46.

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                                        #20
                                        You're still being Norman Stone, right?

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                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Benjm View Post
                                          That Stone obituary is one of the most openly hostile that I've ever read. In the Hugh Massingberd/Telegraph style of irreverent obit the editorial approach was generally positive. The reader might disagree, one person's colourful rascal being another's dangerous criminal, but room for interpretation was left open.

                                          He does seem to have been an outstandingly horrible person though.
                                          Bruce Anderson is another racist sexist dipso Tenement Scot (c John Cleese) who is likely to spark similar obits. Though with only Spectator/DM hackwork to his name as opposed to being a Don who threw it all away.

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                                            #22
                                            "The first bombs dropped from an aircraft were British bombs in Iraq."

                                            Is that right? I know that Britain did lots of bombing in Iraq in the 1920s, but did we do any in or before WW1? The Germans bombed Folkestone from the air in 1917, killng 97 people.

                                            https://www.kentonline.co.uk/folkest...y-then-126206/

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                                              #23
                                              This is from the one Amazon review of his book on Hitler:

                                              "In common with many of his other books, this work by Norman Stone is pithy, insightful and witty. He has perhaps the best eye for an anecdote in a historian that I have ever seen - who else would have noted that as Hitler sat in his bunker, with the Russians surrounding him, he gave into his cake cravings and polished off plates of the stuff. Or, that he liked his (preferably chocolate) cakes to have a little swastika made of icing on top. Stone brings together all the sources then available (1980) to go beyond the Hitler legend, smashing myths as he goes. Unsurprisingly, considering the book is 30 years old, not all of the history if up to date. Nonetheless, if you're looking for a short, entertaining book that will explain Hitler without bias, and which is accessible to laymen, then I cannot recommend this highly enough."

                                              Explaining Hitler without bias, lolz.

                                              I remember disliking Stone when I was doing my BA (European Studies) and a lot of Russian politics/history. He often popped up as the Russian pundit, so I watched him, but never read any of his books - maybe his articles, can't remember. A fellow student really hated him.

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                                                #24
                                                "...if you're looking for a short, entertaining book that will explain Hitler without bias..." Yeah, that Hitler, right? Don't be biased aganst him just because you happen to be against genocide, murdering opponents and starting world wars.

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                                                  #25
                                                  I'm struggling to imagine on a theoretical level how you could have an unbiased view of Hitler. To be neutral is to be pro, surely.

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