how close is the US to fascism?

[Nefertiti2]

This makes one wonder

https://twitter.com/beyerstein/status/1142119589498761216

[Nefertiti2]

this is how the official Republican Twitter feed is describing the situation

https://twitter.com/Oregon_GOP/status/1142619631095439360

[Balderdasha]

OK, I know I'm very uninformed in these matters, I don't follow US news or politics at all really, but I am an intelligent lay person and I have literally no idea what the opening post is talking about. My questions are:

- what does GOP stand for?
- what are local paramilitaries? You state it like these are normal, everyday organisations. Even if I had all the money in the world, I would have no idea how to recruit a local paramilitary in the UK or even if they exist.
- why are they threatening the police? And are they better armed than the police? I thought US police were armed to the teeth?
- who are the police rounding up to vote? What are they voting for? Why are the police involved in the voting process at all?
- what actually is the role of a state senator?
- why is the state senator threatening to kill the police?
- who are the good guys in this scenario? Are there any?

This is why I generally don't read about politics. It makes my head hurt.

[anton pulisov]

GOP = Grand Old Party

[Balderdasha]

That doesn't make things any clearer. What is a 'grand old party'?

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

It's a name they gave to themselves a long time ago when people talked like that.

You've got loads of local paramilitaries in the UK. just maybe not around where you live. The UVF are the biggest organized crime group in the UK.

[Ginger Yellow]

They being Republicans

[Balderdasha]

Ok, yes, I'm aware that there are paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. I'm not aware of any in Hertfordshire, but I may just be naive.

[Balderdasha]

And I don't think googling 'find my nearest paramilitary organisation for hire' is going to do me any favours.

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

The Oregon state senate is meeting to pass a bill about climate change, that has passed the lower house, and has the approval off the Governor, and most of the senate. The Republicans have fled the state in order to prevent the senate having quorum to pass this bill. The State senate can send out the police to drag them in, and they have enlisted the assistance of local white supremacist militias to 'shield' them from the brutal forces of law and order.

What worries me about this is that people are going to need to be able to do this in the future to try and stop republicans from doing stuff, but this sort of thing will establish precedents that make it more difficult. I would assume that it is part of a deliberate strategy

[The Awesome Berbaslug!!!]

Ok, yes, I'm aware that there are paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. I'm not aware of any in Hertfordshire, but I may just be naive.

Ah, but Northern Ireland is part of the UK! If you wanted to hire a paramilitary in NI, either try and shoot a film on this island, or try and enforce a debt. The provos have the security jobs on the former sewn up, the Loyalists, the latter.

[Balderdasha]

Yes, I admit I forgot about paramilitaries in Northern Ireland when I wrote UK. I should have probably written England, but even then there's no doubt somewhere you can hire a paramilitary if you know the right people (I don't).

Thanks for the overview above, that makes things a lot clearer. And a lot scarier.

How many senators do you need to meet quorum?

[ursus arctos]

They need 20. They have 18. The Republicans are alleged to have crossed the border into Idaho so as to be outside the jurisdiction of the state police sent to bring them back.

[Nefertiti2]

When people flee in order to prevent legislation going ahead they should just be deemed to be quorate.

When did people first start pulling this shit?

[Benjm]

And I don't think googling 'find my nearest paramilitary organisation for hire' is going to do me any favours.

[ursus arctos]

The GOP moniker was intended to evoke the GAR, the Grand Army of the Republic, the Union Army veterans organisation that provided the base of the Republican Party in the post Civil War years. Recall that every GOP candidate for President for the rest of the 19th century after Lincoln had been a senior officer in the Union Army and that "waving the bloody shirt" was the party's core message to it's popular support.

The GAR's regular encampments were huge affairs, sort of like of Scout jamborees

[ursus arctos]

When people flee in order to prevent legislation going ahead they should just be deemed to be quorate.

When did people first start pulling this shit?

It happened a few times during Reconstruction (post Civil War). There may be earlier cases that I don't recall right now,

[Benjm]

When people flee in order to prevent legislation going ahead they should just be deemed to be quorate.

Definitely. The breaking for the border helps them to pass it off as some kind of charming historical caper rather than a blatant obstruction of democracy.

[ursus arctos]

Very much agreed, but doing that requires either a new Senate rule, a new law, or an amendment to the State Constitution (I'm not sure where the provision currently sits), none of which can be passed in this situation.

Balders, the Oregon State Police will be very heavily armed by UK standards, but they probably don't have the type of miltary hardware that many urban police departments will have acquired with federal assistance after 9/11 for "counter terrorism activities". The militia, which will be comprised of the kinds of guys who own dozens of weapons, may be able to outgun them.

The tweet of the logging protest is being explained as "trolling" by the Republicans in response to the Democratic and media "snowflake" response to the crisis. Yes, these people are unhinged, but then you knew that.

[ursus arctos]

That is obviously true, but state laws can have deleterious effects on "resource extraction" businesses located within the boundaries of the state and those industries will be big supporters of the clowns who have gone to Idaho.

[anton pulisov]

"waving the bloody shirt"

Sounds like the French anthem.

[NHH]

Didn’t the Texas dems pull this stunt a few years back, minus the militias?

[ursus arctos]

I know the purpose of such laws. We don't have a good success record of using democracy to curb big business for a larger good. The latter always takes priority. The Oregon situation recalls any number of shenanigans that went on in the 19th century.

That is all true, of course, though I don't think it means that legislatures with progressive majorities shouldn't try to take action within the bounds of their limited authority (it is also the case that not all businesses targeted by such laws are "big"). And no, I don't think that you are arguing the contrary.

This is a good piece on the detailed background to the dispute. In particular

At issue is House Bill 2020, which would implement a wide ranging cap-and-trade system in the state similar to one that exists now in California. Republicans say the law would disproportionately impact their rural districts, raising gas prices and sending jobs across state lines. The bill passed the House earlier this week, and was scheduled for a final Senate vote Thursday.

The planned walkout follows another in May over a business tax for public schools that wound up being signed into law. After staying away from the Capitol for four days, Republicans struck a deal that resulted in the end of high-profile bills to tighten state laws regarding vaccines and gun control. Republicans also say they were given assurances they’d have meaningful impact on HB 2020 moving forward. In exchange, they agreed not to walk out for the rest of session.

Bentz said Thursday that Democrats had not held up their end of the bargain, and that his ideas for amending the cap-and-trade bill had been stonewalled.

[Hot Pepsi]

State Legislatures are the worst.

This is all part of the The Last Stand of the Confederacy, really, isn't it? I know the GOP were not part of the Confederacy and neither was Oregon, but it's all part of that same tradition - mostly white, mostly male landowners whose true religion is their own power.

And like most Last Stands, it's going to be ugly and bloody. They'll ultimately lose, but they could take the rest of us with them.

I suspect they're especially aware of this in Oregon. Which was once explicitly whites only but is rapidly becoming more diverse, more urban, and less-dependent on timber jobs.
https://www.oregonlive.com/mapes/201...gons_more.html
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...re-pronounced/



How bad will the world have to get until the GOP cannot win on climate change denial any more?
I'm thinking that in ten years time, they'll admit there's a real problem, but then won't be willing to really do anything about it for another 20 or so years after that, by which time lots and lots of damage will be done.

[ursus arctos]

I'm afraid that sounds right to me.

And given that we still are still dealing with Last Standers, the prognosis is bleak.