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Labour rejects concept of Social mobility

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    Then Labour should, at the least, commit to being in the (not aligned to, not close to) Single Market as its preffered post Brexit stance. Stop pandering to racists or indulging Lexit bullshit myths about State Aid.
    Last edited by Lang Spoon; 11-06-2019, 22:52.

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      Originally posted by johnr View Post
      LS, and others: let's forget, just for the moment, what you would have liked to happen after the referendum that voted Out. In purely electoral terms, if Labour hadn't agreed to trigger A50 - and let's be clear, they couldn't have stopped it - they would very very likely have lost the subsequent GE by a lot more (I think it's fairly well established that their ambiguity, alongside their focus on other issues, helped their vote). The UK would be out. It's all hindsight, of course, but that's my reading.

      So, let's move on, cos Labour could never Stop Brexit by shouting 'Stop Brexit!'. It has a chance of doing it, or getting the next shittiest version, by doing what it's doing. Your strategy would, I'm afraid, have had us out of the EU a while back.
      This seems like Blairite triangulation: "we would have done worse with certain voters so we had to take a more right-wing position".

      I think that after the referendum Labour should have been explicit in saying that they thought it was a bad outcome, and that Britain would be worse off outside the EU. But that if Britain had to be outside the EU then the only workable way to do that would be to remain in the Single Market and retain freedom of movement. They should have been pushing Norway-Plus from the outset, being clear that everything else would be a failure for EU citizens in Britain, British citizens in Europe, for the functioning of the Irish border, and for the prosperity of the country. If Teresa May had had a guaranteed 200-odd Labour votes for Norway-plus, that's probably where we'd have ended up.

      Instead, it looks like we're about to have three years of Boris Johnson as PM leading a No Deal Brexit before the next election. Which, to me, doesn't look like a winning outcome.

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        Johnson is more likely to last three months than three years.

        And the concept that Theresa May would have made some kind of Norway-plus deal that Labour would have supported is ludicrous. Have we forgotten so quickly what her fundamental motivations were?

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          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
          I think that after the referendum Labour should have been explicit in saying that they thought it was a bad outcome, and that Britain would be worse off outside the EU. But that if Britain had to be outside the EU then the only workable way to do that would be to remain in the Single Market and retain freedom of movement.
          Jesus. It's almost as if what DA said about the six tests being completely ignored was correct...

          Originally posted by San Bernardhinault View Post
          They should have been pushing Norway-Plus from the outset, being clear that everything else would be a failure for EU citizens in Britain, British citizens in Europe, for the functioning of the Irish border, and for the prosperity of the country. If Teresa May had had a guaranteed 200-odd Labour votes for Norway-plus, that's probably where we'd have ended up.
          But no one wants a Norway plus. Not remainers, not leavers and certainly not Norway. The situation now is shit or bust. We no-deal or we stay.
          All the FBPE lot seem happy to risk a no deal to try to get a revocation or second referendum and a Norway deal would have scuppered that.
          All the Quitlings won't be happy until we're tootling over the white cliffs in a big red bus full of TNT singing Rule Fucking Britannia. And a Norway deal would have scuppered that.
          One side is based on a basic faith in the intelligence of a group of people they've spent 3 years calling morons. The other is based on a risible populist two world wars and one world cup nationalism so beloved of the aforementioned morons.
          Norway was never EVER EVER going to happen. All 3 years of Labour banging on about it would have done is maintained the last govt without an election (or with a bigger majority) so the best we'd have now is Norway - - - - -.

          I don't particularly like the way Corbyn tap dances around this shit and despite voting for him twice I wish he'd fuck off now and let someone with half a brain have a go. He's served his purpose (dragging Labour to the left and making morons like Owen Smith out themselves as morons.)
          But really, every time anything happens and you're proved wrong on Labour's tactics and the results turn out to be closer to what you wanted, you shamelessly move the goalposts. I bet if we end up with a referendum, you'll be complaining that Labour didn't unilaterally revoke A50 despite not being in a position to do so.

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            Couldn't the last six pages of this thread have been migrated to the Brexit thread? I might start butting in on all Premier League football threads and writing 850-word diatribes about how your beloved top-flight football will be fucked over by Brexit. See how much fun those threads become.

            I think the social mobility-junking, plus the land reform stuff (not all of which is contingent on finance but are legislative) are important steps forward, and they've chirped me up a bit. Important paradigm-shifting. And there's a good piece by Dawn Foster here on why.

            As for B*e**t, my source close-ish to McDonnell's entourage say they're pretty up for campaigning on a pro-remain platform in any referendum, but they'd need that policy to be approved by the membership, so that activists take ownership, rather than just doing something because Polly Toynbee has nagged them to do it.

            Some of the criticisms of Corbyn's stance - notably those of NHH and SB - are valid enough mind, but I agree to a large extent with DA too.

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