Labour rejects concept of Social mobility

[johnr]

But you're not re-running the same referendum, you're asking people whether or not they want a no-deal brexit, a withdrawal agreement brexit, or maybe just forget about the whole thing as a bad idea. It's not the same referendum, because we've now actually seen what is on offer and it's not what anyone voted for. It would be the easiest thing in the world to say "We have had the same three options in front of us for the last 18 months and parliament can't resolve them. The People got us into this mess, and the people can fucking get us out of it."

Indeed, that is what Labour have committed to.

What is it that people aren't getting here?

[San Bernardhinault]

That Labour have done nothing to create an environment where a new referendum is winnable. Committing to a referendum without committing to a position on it, without explaining why rejecting Brexit makes all the sense, seems to be bad tactics, and continuing with the rubbish triangulation rather than actually having principles and stating them and trying to persuade people about the correct position.

It's weird, because - as I said earlier on this thread - they're willing to take positions outside the media mainstream like the one on social mobility that started the thread, and are willing to try and bring the public along because it's clear and it's right.

Yet, somehow, they don't have the courage to do this on the EU.

[Lang Spoon]

A thousand times this.

[NHH]

We're not getting that this is a policy that the party will follow through on given the frankly awful triangulating bollocks the Leader's office and their spokespeople have been engaged in, and that because Labour's policy is driven by this bunch of pillocks who - as TAB has ably demonstrated - have been completely idiotic on this issue until the last 9 months of so from the resolution before the conference.
It is possible to think that a) Corbyn's leadership represents the best opportunity for a decisive break with the shit awful consensus that has strangled British politics for all of my life and b) that the same leader isn't very good a leading and c) that the people advising him are dickheads on the major issue that is at the centre of political debate. This refraction of everything through the lens of whether it preserves the leader or not is fantastically against the fundamental principles the movement around him supposedly stands for.

[Lang Spoon]

You only have to look at him trying to parachute the useless and dangerous Lexiter Katy Clark in as an MEP for London to see that NHH is right. His advisors must be an absolute shower, a mad combo of cynical triangulator and true believer like a Blairite mirror.

[David Agnew]

By illustration, another meaningless motion to "rule out" no deal, but without a practical alternative to the Withdrawal Agreement that would actually accomplish this:

http://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1138460352805560320

A condition of May getting an extension, was that there is no further negotiation. Her last desperate throw of the dice.

There's three outcomes from here:
May's deal is somehow pushed through.
No Deal
No Brexit

Rejecting No Deal has already won a non-binding vote by 4, with neither Paul Flynn or Fiona Onasanya voting. Both of their replacements are remainers. If this goes through, then it's May's deal or No Brexit. No alternative needed.

[David Agnew]

We're not getting that this is a policy that the party will follow through on given the frankly awful triangulating bollocks the Leader's office and their spokespeople have been engaged in, and that because Labour's policy is driven by this bunch of pillocks who - as TAB has ably demonstrated - have been completely idiotic on this issue until the last 9 months of so from the resolution before the conference.
It is possible to think that a) Corbyn's leadership represents the best opportunity for a decisive break with the shit awful consensus that has strangled British politics for all of my life and b) that the same leader isn't very good a leading and c) that the people advising him are dickheads on the major issue that is at the centre of political debate. This refraction of everything through the lens of whether it preserves the leader or not is fantastically against the fundamental principles the movement around him supposedly stands for.

Alternatively...

Europe has been the one issue that the Tories have tried to rip themselves apart over the EU for decades, and the mistake the Labour party have repeatedly made have been to give them something to fight, and unite over.

Post-referendum, the six tests were designed, (not by Corbyn or Starmer), and they were always unachievable. Page one stuff unachievable, and I'm fairly sure the designer of the tests knew it too. Then Labour sat back. The Tories ripped into each other. The media claimed Labour had no policy, even though they'd published that very policy. The centrists pushed for another referendum and gave Amber Rudd's brother the job of running the campiagn. The Tories ripped further into each other. Ministers resigned over May's Brexit policy and even over agreements they themselves had negotiated with Brussels, or with May herself. The centrists replied to every Corbyn utterance with "BUT JEREMY WHAT ABOUT A PEOPLE'S VOTE?" regardless of whether or not it was appropriate. The media carried on ignoring the six tests, and claiming Labour had no policy. The Tories carried on fighting each other. Corbyn got accused of enabling Brexit by remainers, and being a traitor who was stopping Brexit by leavers. March 29th came and went. May's withdrawal agreement lost, lost again, and lost a third time, even though she promised to resign it passed.

Now, the Tories have no leader, no majority, and they no longer have the arrangement with the DUP as it has expired. Rory "brown number" Stewart is looking like the only reasonable Tory despite being the most craven apologist of the May withdrawal agreement, who voted for it three times, and publicly defended it by pulling an 80% public approval out of his arse, for the deal out of his arse before the ink had dried. There isn't the support for no deal, or May's deal, and May has killed the opportunity for any other deal. The Tory party is in ruins, and we're about to stay in the EU, without having another nasty, divisive referendum that would prolong all this shitshow for another six months.

This has happened because Labour forced the Tories to fight amongst themselves, by not giving them a distraction.

(A lot of which I already said here, a few months ago.)

[johnr]

That Labour have done nothing to create an environment where a new referendum is winnable. Committing to a referendum without committing to a position on it, without explaining why rejecting Brexit makes all the sense, seems to be bad tactics, and continuing with the rubbish triangulation rather than actually having principles and stating them and trying to persuade people about the correct position.

It's weird, because - as I said earlier on this thread - they're willing to take positions outside the media mainstream like the one on social mobility that started the thread, and are willing to try and bring the public along because it's clear and it's right.

Yet, somehow, they don't have the courage to do this on the EU.

All good. But we don't have a referendum, yet. Labour haven't yet been able - despite their constant pushing - to 'create an environment' to stop No Deal so far, never mind Remain.

However, we haven't left the EU yet, and that is largely down to Labour pausing it. Yep. We wouldn't be here now if Labour had been Stop Brexit for the last two years. (That's of course a matter of opinion, but fwiw it's from my close reading of the media, elections, and people I talk to from all sides (my very extended family are mainly a bunch of Brexiteers)).

Corbyn, Starmer, Thornberry, McDonnell, me, all campaigned to Remain. They/I would like to Remain. They/I'm not - yet - fighting the battle to Remain, because there isn't that option, with the current government. There will be with a Labour Government. There might be under the next Tory one. But there is nothing yet that shows that the 35-40% of UK voters are going to move from Leave, despite the Stop Brexit lot being 'persuaded' by 'common sense', marches in London, and lots of media folk telling them that they're idiots.

We're not going to agree on this, with regard to the strategy, and what we really think that the Labour leadership really think. To move it forward somewhat, I'd appreciate no more long posts from people telling me 'why Brexit will be bad/disastrous for the UK' (not to mention the 'it's going to kill at least 1,300,000 people' without even giving a timescale), because, well, I know that - IT'S WHY I CAMPAIGNED FOR REMAIN. Let's discuss how we're going to stop the very worst happening, maybe even get to a bit-less-worst happening, and maybe even, in time, the best happening.

[David Agnew]

All good. But we don't have a referendum, yet. Labour haven't yet been able - despite their constant pushing - to 'create an environment' to stop No Deal so far, never mind Remain.

However, we haven't left the EU yet, and that is largely down to Labour pausing it. Yep. We wouldn't be here now if Labour had been Stop Brexit for the last two years. (That's of course a matter of opinion, but fwiw it's from my close reading of the media, elections, and people I talk to from all sides (my very extended family are mainly a bunch of Brexiteers)).

Corbyn, Starmer, Thornberry, McDonnell, me, all campaigned to Remain. They/I would like to Remain. They/I'm not - yet - fighting the battle to Remain, because there isn't that option, with the current government. There will be with a Labour Government. There might be under the next Tory one. But there is nothing yet that shows that the 35-40% of UK voters are going to move from Leave, despite the Stop Brexit lot being 'persuaded' by 'common sense', marches in London, and lots of media folk telling them that they're idiots.

We're not going to agree on this, with regard to the strategy, and what we really think that the Labour leadership really think. To move it forward somewhat, I'd appreciate no more long posts from people telling me 'why Brexit will be bad/disastrous for the UK' (not to mention the 'it's going to kill at least 1,300,000 people' without even giving a timescale), because, well, I know that - IT'S WHY I CAMPAIGNED FOR REMAIN. Let's discuss how we're going to stop the very worst happening, maybe even get to a bit-less-worst happening, and maybe even, in time, the best happening.

Certainly, where I live, the only party that campaigned for Remain were the Labour Party. A friend of mine was campaigning for the City Elections, and was told by one (specific) voter, that they would be voting LibDem because they were a remainer, and had always been a staunch remainer. My campaigning friend reminded the voter, that the voter had asked for advice on how to vote, two days before the referendum, because they by their own admission at the time, the voter didn't know anything about the EU.

[Nefertiti2]

Youse tell Europe to fuck off and are surprised the 27 dont fall over themselves with concessions?

But it's going to be the British - not the EU who have to decide to hold a referendum and then to vote a different way. When they wanted Ireland to do that there were some carrots as well as sticks.

When Corbyn has approached the EU showing a readiness to build a long term relationship he has been encouraged, but that is drowned out by the voices of a weid allinace of the right- and the FBPE crowd- and their Irish allies.

[Nefertiti2]

All good. But we don't have a referendum, yet. Labour haven't yet been able - despite their constant pushing - to 'create an environment' to stop No Deal so far, never mind Remain.

However, we haven't left the EU yet, and that is largely down to Labour pausing it. Yep. We wouldn't be here now if Labour had been Stop Brexit for the last two years. (That's of course a matter of opinion, but fwiw it's from my close reading of the media, elections, and people I talk to from all sides (my very extended family are mainly a bunch of Brexiteers)).

Corbyn, Starmer, Thornberry, McDonnell, me, all campaigned to Remain. They/I would like to Remain. They/I'm not - yet - fighting the battle to Remain, because there isn't that option, with the current government. There will be with a Labour Government. There might be under the next Tory one. But there is nothing yet that shows that the 35-40% of UK voters are going to move from Leave, despite the Stop Brexit lot being 'persuaded' by 'common sense', marches in London, and lots of media folk telling them that they're idiots.

We're not going to agree on this, with regard to the strategy, and what we really think that the Labour leadership really think. To move it forward somewhat, I'd appreciate no more long posts from people telling me 'why Brexit will be bad/disastrous for the UK' (not to mention the 'it's going to kill at least 1,300,000 people' without even giving a timescale), because, well, I know that - IT'S WHY I CAMPAIGNED FOR REMAIN. Let's discuss how we're going to stop the very worst happening, maybe even get to a bit-less-worst happening, and maybe even, in time, the best happening.

What he said.

[Nefertiti2]

Alternatively...

Europe has been the one issue that the Tories have tried to rip themselves apart over the EU for decades, and the mistake the Labour party have repeatedly made have been to give them something to fight, and unite over.

Post-referendum, the six tests were designed, (not by Corbyn or Starmer), and they were always unachievable. Page one stuff unachievable, and I'm fairly sure the designer of the tests knew it too. Then Labour sat back. The Tories ripped into each other. The media claimed Labour had no policy, even though they'd published that very policy. The centrists pushed for another referendum and gave Amber Rudd's brother the job of running the campiagn. The Tories ripped further into each other. Ministers resigned over May's Brexit policy and even over agreements they themselves had negotiated with Brussels, or with May herself. The centrists replied to every Corbyn utterance with "BUT JEREMY WHAT ABOUT A PEOPLE'S VOTE?" regardless of whether or not it was appropriate. The media carried on ignoring the six tests, and claiming Labour had no policy. The Tories carried on fighting each other. Corbyn got accused of enabling Brexit by remainers, and being a traitor who was stopping Brexit by leavers. March 29th came and went. May's withdrawal agreement lost, lost again, and lost a third time, even though she promised to resign it passed.

Now, the Tories have no leader, no majority, and they no longer have the arrangement with the DUP as it has expired. Rory "brown number" Stewart is looking like the only reasonable Tory despite being the most craven apologist of the May withdrawal agreement, who voted for it three times, and publicly defended it by pulling an 80% public approval out of his arse, for the deal out of his arse before the ink had dried. There isn't the support for no deal, or May's deal, and May has killed the opportunity for any other deal. The Tory party is in ruins, and we're about to stay in the EU, without having another nasty, divisive referendum that would prolong all this shitshow for another six months.

This has happened because Labour forced the Tories to fight amongst themselves, by not giving them a distraction.

(A lot of which I already said here, a few months ago.)

Also what he said.

[Diable Rouge]

Alternatively...

Europe has been the one issue that the Tories have tried to rip themselves apart over the EU for decades, and the mistake the Labour party have repeatedly made have been to give them something to fight, and unite over.

Post-referendum, the six tests were designed, (not by Corbyn or Starmer), and they were always unachievable. Page one stuff unachievable, and I'm fairly sure the designer of the tests knew it too. Then Labour sat back. The Tories ripped into each other. The media claimed Labour had no policy, even though they'd published that very policy. The centrists pushed for another referendum and gave Amber Rudd's brother the job of running the campiagn. The Tories ripped further into each other. Ministers resigned over May's Brexit policy and even over agreements they themselves had negotiated with Brussels, or with May herself. The centrists replied to every Corbyn utterance with "BUT JEREMY WHAT ABOUT A PEOPLE'S VOTE?" regardless of whether or not it was appropriate. The media carried on ignoring the six tests, and claiming Labour had no policy. The Tories carried on fighting each other. Corbyn got accused of enabling Brexit by remainers, and being a traitor who was stopping Brexit by leavers. March 29th came and went. May's withdrawal agreement lost, lost again, and lost a third time, even though she promised to resign it passed.

Now, the Tories have no leader, no majority, and they no longer have the arrangement with the DUP as it has expired. Rory "brown number" Stewart is looking like the only reasonable Tory despite being the most craven apologist of the May withdrawal agreement, who voted for it three times, and publicly defended it by pulling an 80% public approval out of his arse, for the deal out of his arse before the ink had dried. There isn't the support for no deal, or May's deal, and May has killed the opportunity for any other deal. The Tory party is in ruins, and we're about to stay in the EU, without having another nasty, divisive referendum that would prolong all this shitshow for another six months.

This has happened because Labour forced the Tories to fight amongst themselves, by not giving them a distraction.

(A lot of which I already said here, a few months ago.)

Except you're currently on course to crash out with no deal, rather than staying in the EU?

[NHH]

The Tory party is in ruins, and we're about to stay in the EU, without having another nasty, divisive referendum that would prolong all this shitshow for another six months.

This has happened because Labour forced the Tories to fight amongst themselves, by not giving them a distraction

Remind me how this happens. That involves Parliament choosing meaningful and lasting revocation over no deal. I don’t feel like I’m living in the version of reality where they do this.

[Lang Spoon]

But it's going to be the British - not the EU who have to decide to hold a referendum and then to vote a different way. When they wanted Ireland to do that there were some carrots as well as sticks.

When Corbyn has approached the EU showing a readiness to build a long term relationship he has been encouraged, but that is drowned out by the voices of a weid allinace of the right- and the FBPE crowd- and their Irish allies.

You won't you can't you never will get "close alignment" to the single market. This is non negotiable. If youse start chipping away at FoM the EU falls apart. Barnier was humouring youse if he implied that was possible. You can be like Norway but with a customs Union if you want to respect the GFA and stop your economy dying or youse can get tae fuck. It's already been pointed out that the "changes" to the Lisbon treaty were mostly meaningless addendums to a treaty that hadn't passed when ireland got the second ref. If the EU made changes to the existing treaties just to placate you- guess who would need to hold a ref? Ireland.

And the crazy thing is, Ireland and maybe Germany are about the only countries on the 27 that can still be arsed with youse and your puffed up self importance. Germany has politely humored youse during the last three years, and the Irish Govt has tried to be nice. But no matter what bollocks is talked about a unicorn bespoke SM deal it is not on the table. Why the fuck should FoM be watered down so Labour can pander to racists? And for the millionth time, EU State Aid rules don't prohibit Labour's (pretty piss weak Social Democracy in Euro terms) manifesto.

[Lang Spoon]

The EU owes youse nothing. The only way youse will get another extension is through an unlikely General Election, or another referendum. Otherwise it's no deal in October. Now obvs the Tories are the most culpable, but Labour have been abetting this bullshit the minute after they went along with the Article 50 vote.

And Nef, specifically what concessions do you think the EU should have offered?

[Nefertiti2]

The EU owes youse nothing. The only way youse will get another extension is through an unlikely General Election, or another referendum. Otherwise it's no deal in October. Now obvs the Tories are the most culpable, but Labour have been abetting this bullshit the minute after they went along with the Article 50 vote.

And Nef, specifically what concessions do you think the EU should have offered?

It shouldn't have propped up Theresa May.

[Lang Spoon]

!!! It shouldn't have offered an extension and just let youse crash out?

[Nefertiti2]

You won't you can't you never will get "close alignment" to the single market. This is non negotiable. If youse start chipping away at FoM the EU falls apart. Barnier was humouring youse if he implied that was possible. You can be like Norway but with a customs Union if you want to respect the GFA and stop your economy dying or youse can get tae fuck. It's already been pointed out that the "changes" to the Lisbon treaty were mostly meaningless addendums to a treaty that hadn't passed when ireland got the second ref. If the EU made changes to the existing treaties just to placate you- guess who would need to hold a ref? Ireland.

And the crazy thing is, Ireland and maybe Germany are about the only countries on the 27 that can still be arsed with youse and your puffed up self importance. Germany has politely humored youse during the last three years, and the Irish Govt has tried to be nice. But no matter what bollocks is talked about a unicorn bespoke SM deal it is not on the table. Why the fuck should FoM be watered down so Labour can pander to racists? And for the millionth time, EU State Aid rules don't prohibit Labour's (pretty piss weak Social Democracy in Euro terms) manifesto.

STOP WITH THE YOUSE

Your persistent abuse of the British is rude and counter- productive. It would not be tolerated about any other nattionality So distinguish please between the British government and the many British people on this board.

Your persistent aggression could also be seen to fall into national sterotypes. So give it up, eh,

[Lang Spoon]

I'm also British Nef.

[Nefertiti2]

So what's with the Youse, then? Or is that just reserved for the English...

[Lang Spoon]

And youse was referring to Labour in most of that, certainly the first para

[Nefertiti2]

Why not say- "the Labour Party", then Or the" Labour leadership"?

[Lang Spoon]

Sweet zombie Jesus it's shorthand and I'm tired and flu-y. I might use youse to refer to Irish folk, Dubs, Culchies, Skerries folk, British folk, rangers fans, Celtic fans at diff times depending on the context. I really didn't mean anything by it.

[johnr]

LS, and others: let's forget, just for the moment, what you would have liked to happen after the referendum that voted Out. In purely electoral terms, if Labour hadn't agreed to trigger A50 - and let's be clear, they couldn't have stopped it - they would very very likely have lost the subsequent GE by a lot more (I think it's fairly well established that their ambiguity, alongside their focus on other issues, helped their vote). The UK would be out. It's all hindsight, of course, but that's my reading.

So, let's move on, cos Labour could never Stop Brexit by shouting 'Stop Brexit!'. It has a chance of doing it, or getting the next shittiest version, by doing what it's doing. Your strategy would, I'm afraid, have had us out of the EU a while back.