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    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
    We've been over this many times. Barnier was quite prepared to listen to Corbyn's proposal



    So why I wonder do you waste so much time foaming at the mouth about the Labour party?

    St
    Oh for God's sake, of course the EU is pleased to hear that someone is prepared to pass the withdrawal agreement and sign up to the customs union. That's literally what the EU wants to happen. The EU doesn't really care what happens to you in the medium to long term as long as you settle up your affairs, then fuck off and stop bothering them. There's lots of more important things to deal with than this embarrassing melodrama. As for alignment with the single market, well they're not going to be rude about it in public, but remember that diagram that barnier had right back at the beginning..... the UK may be able to see the single market on a clear day from dover, but they may as well be north Korea for all the access that they will have to it. And that's the unicorn bit.

    It's all that bollocks that they were coming out with about a 'jobs-first' brexit. That's the fucking fantasy bit. That's the nonsense bit, that's the bit that can't be forgiven. There's no such thing as a jobs first brexit. This is going to devastate wide swathes of the UK economy. And instead of pointing out this incredibly obvious problem with brexit, Labour have instead spent the last three years saying that the problem is with the Tory form of brexit and not brexit itself. Labour have spent much of the last three years pretending that there is some fucking possible scenario where brexit doesn't obliterate the export services sector, while putting an axe through the forehead of the manufacturing sector, so even if there is a second referendum, literally no ground work has been done to win it.

    The proposals outlined in this story are good. But they are literally meaningless in the context of brexit. I know that it can be annoying to keep hearing this, but sooner or later the penny has to drop, and that is that brexit is going to be the death of any progressive improvements to the UK economy or public sector. Nothing really bad has ever happened in the UK in living memory. There have been a few wobbles along the way, a vicious class and economic war, but there is nothing to compare to what we went through over the last decade. That may be about to change. That's the thing that needs to be focused on.

    Which brings us back to the obvious question, why is a supposedly lft wing party, dishonestly claiming that they will implement a better form of predictable and obvious economic nightmare, rather than trying to fight against it? You were supposed to have left two and a half months ago. You're due to leave in four and a half months time. Nothing has changed, except the tories have gone full blown-tea party, and labour are still not ruling out calling a second referendum.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Nocturnal Submission View Post
      Fair enough.

      From your description of the constituency you could well be getting a lot more BP literature at the next election but I really don't think that the majority of us will.
      My sisters boyfriend (in his thirties) got leaflets from Brexit and UKIP. He's a lefty in the most Remainy part of Remain city Edinburgh, but apparently even there they were targeting men. Trying to Awake the Gammon I guess.

      Comment


        Well, UKIP and the BP especially were going all out in the Euro-elections as every vote counted, both in terms of getting MEPs and the impact of their overall share of the vote. But in a GE their money and foot-soldiers would be much more targetted, I'd have thought.

        Comment


          Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

          and labour are still not ruling out calling a second referendum.
          Do you mean 'not ruling out not calling a second referendum'?

          If so, you're wrong. If not, you're right.

          Comment


            Originally posted by The Awesome Berbaslug!!! View Post

            Oh for God's sake, of course the EU is pleased to hear that someone is prepared to pass the withdrawal agreement and sign up to the customs union. That's literally what the EU wants to happen. The EU doesn't really care what happens to you in the medium to long term as long as you settle up your affairs, then fuck off and stop bothering them. There's lots of more important things to deal with than this embarrassing melodrama. As for alignment with the single market, well they're not going to be rude about it in public, but remember that diagram that barnier had right back at the beginning..... the UK may be able to see the single market on a clear day from dover, but they may as well be north Korea for all the access that they will have to it. And that's the unicorn bit.

            It's all that bollocks that they were coming out with about a 'jobs-first' brexit. That's the fucking fantasy bit. That's the nonsense bit, that's the bit that can't be forgiven. There's no such thing as a jobs first brexit. This is going to devastate wide swathes of the UK economy. And instead of pointing out this incredibly obvious problem with brexit, Labour have instead spent the last three years saying that the problem is with the Tory form of brexit and not brexit itself. Labour have spent much of the last three years pretending that there is some fucking possible scenario where brexit doesn't obliterate the export services sector, while putting an axe through the forehead of the manufacturing sector, so even if there is a second referendum, literally no ground work has been done to win it.

            The proposals outlined in this story are good. But they are literally meaningless in the context of brexit. I know that it can be annoying to keep hearing this, but sooner or later the penny has to drop, and that is that brexit is going to be the death of any progressive improvements to the UK economy or public sector. Nothing really bad has ever happened in the UK in living memory. There have been a few wobbles along the way, a vicious class and economic war, but there is nothing to compare to what we went through over the last decade. That may be about to change. That's the thing that needs to be focused on.

            Which brings us back to the obvious question, why is a supposedly lft wing party, dishonestly claiming that they will implement a better form of predictable and obvious economic nightmare, rather than trying to fight against it? You were supposed to have left two and a half months ago. You're due to leave in four and a half months time. Nothing has changed, except the tories have gone full blown-tea party, and labour are still not ruling out calling a second referendum.

            There appears to be some fault with this message board Snake- it's recycling old posts as if they were new

            Comment


              Originally posted by johnr View Post

              I'll mention this to you one more time TAB, as I know you don't follow UK politics that closely: if Labour had have taken that position 'over three fucking years' ago, May would have had us out of the EU months ago, and would also put all sorts of other, terrible, legislation in place.

              By the way, how long will Brexit take to kill the (at least) 1,300,000 people that you predict? Is that in the first year from the 31st October? Or over a five-year period? 10?
              That's not what I said. What I said is that for the last three years, Labour have adopted an official position on Brexit that is colluding with the brexiteers, by claiming that this is a settled issue for all time, and that a jobs friendly brexit is possible, A bit like a beneficial famine, or an uplifting plague. Now you can say that this is their position, and you can try and defend it on its own merits, but to claim that it is the only possible position to adopt on brexit, or that it is the only effective position to adopt on Brexit is a stretch.

              Labour were a mess during the referendum. They were sidelined by the media, but they made a very poor job of explaining what the EU actually does, why it matters, and how it can be used to build a better and fairer society. There was no sense from Labour, or Jeremy corbyn in particular, that if he were to be elected prime minister, he would be one of the three most important people in the EU, along with the German Prime minister, and the French President. You got no sense from them that the EU was the only possible means to make large companies pay tax. You got no sense from them that The EU was the only means through which you could regulate banks, you got no sense from them that the EU was the only means through which you could solve a myriad of continent wide problems facing the UK. And you got no real sense from them that everything that people were complaining about had the square root of fuck all to do with the EU, and everything to do with electing Tory governments of different stripes for 40 straight years.

              There was no sense from them of all the benefits that the EU brings, nor any real effort to explain how the UK economy is utterly and totally reliant on single market membership, though that one is a little more difficult to explain. You heard very little about Northern ireland from anyone, and you certainly didn't see labour marching around the dispossessed north pointing out that the EU told the UK govt to try and keep redcar Steel mill going, or that the EU is the only body pumping money into these regions, and the only people telling the UK govt to pump more money in to fix them. It's the Tories that keep saying no.

              There was a positive, progressive message about what is possible in the EU, that the labour party simply failed to make. And as a major component of the remain campaign, that was fatal. Cunts like Osborne and Cameron couldn't make that case. They're soul eating human vampires. It was up to labour to make that case, and they failed. but there was still time to turn it around. Instead you got Jeremy corbyn telling us that he was 70% in favour of staying in the European union, which as it turns out is entirely as a result of him not having the first fucking idea how it works. Great work lads. With Friends like that who needs enemies.

              Even then, with the referendum lost, there was no-one making the case that now that the people had voted for Brexit, there was no common idea what they had voted for, and there was no guarantee that people would like what brexit turned out to be in reality. The Next phase of Brexit would involve negotiating the UK's exit from the European Union, and setting up its future relationship with the EU. That would entirely be down to the EU with the UK choosing from a set of options, and the EU dictating the terms. (i.e. what is currently happening) Labour could very perceptively have pointed out that this might differ very radically from the brexit that people were promised, or that they voted for, and that if elected they would put the agreement with the EU to a referendum to see if people still wanted Brexit reality. Asking a new question, when people had more information.

              This option has always been open to Labour. It could have at any point since December 2017, after the UK govt agreed to the Withdrawal Agreement, that they would support passing it, in return for a referendum on whether to go ahead with the WA, Go for a hard brexit, or Stay in the EU. Essentially allow the people to choose between the three options that Parliament can't deal with.

              As far as I can make out, the only reason that Labour haven't made this switch is because the leadership really want brexit. because otherwise they would fucking do something.

              Comment


                Nonsense. Labour is responding to a referendum.

                It's not so easy to stitch up the rerun of a referendum in a country with 66 million people than it is in a country with under 5 million.Nor has the Uk been granted the kinds of special treatment that the Irish were given


                As far as I can make out the only reason Berbaslug keeps attacking Jeremy Corbyn is because Berbaslug wants a no deal Brexit.

                Misquoting Jeremy Corbyn shows how specious your arguments are.

                Corbyn was not responsible for the terrible Remain campaign - it was run by Will (Son of Jack) Straw. and Labour Right Wing darling Alan johnson.

                Corbyn campaigned relentlessly, and said he said he would give the EU seven out of 10 -which is a first class grade in a University.

                It means that he was very definitely in favour but recognised that it's not perfect.
                Last edited by Nefertiti2; 11-06-2019, 15:40.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                  Nor has the Uk been granted the kinds of special treatment that the Irish were given
                  subtitles please.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Lang Spoon View Post

                    subtitles please.
                    From Wikipedia

                    In the meeting of the European Council (the meeting of the heads of government of all twenty-seven European Union member states) in Brussels on 11–12 December 2008, Taoiseach Brian Cowen presented the concerns of the Irish people relating to taxation policy, family, social and ethical issues, and Ireland's policy of neutrality.[75]Effectively Ireland's position was renegotiated, and the revised package was approved by the electorate in 2009. Because of the Irish financial crisis it was also apparent that Ireland would need increased financial support from the European Union.

                    The European Council agreed that:
                    • the necessary legal guarantees would be given that nothing in the Treaty of Lisbon made any change of any kind to the Union's competences on taxation for any member state;[75]
                    • the necessary legal guarantees would be given that the Treaty of Lisbon did not prejudice the security and defence policy of any member state, including Ireland's traditional policy of neutrality;[75]
                    • the necessary legal guarantees would be given that neither the Treaty of Lisbon (including the Justice and Home Affairs provisions), nor the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, affected the provisions of the Irish Constitution in relation to the right to life, education and the family in any way;[75]
                    • in accordance with the necessary legal procedures, a Decision would be taken to retain Ireland's Commissioner, provided that the Treaty of Lisbon was ratified;[75]
                    • the high importance attached to issues including workers' rights would be confirmed.[75]

                    The Irish Government then committed to seeking ratification of the Treaty of Lisbon by the end of the term of the current European Commission[75] (October 2009), provided that the above were implemented satisfactorily.[75]

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                      Nonsense. Labour is responding to a referendum.

                      It's not so easy to stitch up the rerun of a referendum in a country with 66 million people than it is in a country with under 5 million.Nor has the Uk been granted the kinds of special treatment that the Irish were given


                      As far as I can make out the only reason Berbaslug keeps attacking Jeremy Corbyn is because Berbaslug wants a no deal Brexit.

                      Misquoting Jeremy Corbyn shows how specious your arguments are.

                      Corbyn was not responsible for the terrible Remain campaign - it was run by Will (Son of Jack) Straw. and Labour Right Wing darling Alan johnson.

                      Corbyn campaigned relentlessly, and said he said he would give the EU seven out of 10 -which is a first class grade in a University.

                      It means that he was very definitely in favour but recognised that it's not perfect.
                      After the Irish referenda, the government of the time examined why they failed, discovered it was due to (irrelevant to the actual topic) concerns about neutrality and abortion, went to Brussels with a very specific shopping list, and got the necessary opt-outs. Britain's very problem for the last three years is that there is no national consensus on either the result, or how to implement it.

                      Comment


                        By illustration, another meaningless motion to "rule out" no deal, but without a practical alternative to the Withdrawal Agreement that would actually accomplish this:

                        http://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1138460352805560320

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                          Nor has the Uk been granted the kinds of special treatment that the Irish were given
                          For over two decades:
                          Euro opt out
                          Schengen opt out
                          6 billion quid annual EU membership discount ('rebate')

                          and now:
                          Transition period
                          Article 50 extension

                          As far as I can make out the only reason Berbaslug keeps attacking Jeremy Corbyn is because Berbaslug wants a no deal Brexit.
                          Yes, because it would seriously damage the Irish economy
                          Last edited by anton pulisov; 11-06-2019, 16:10.

                          Comment


                            Also the Social Chapter, until they voluntarily opted in to that.

                            Comment


                              This "ruling out" stuff is absolute bollocks.

                              The only way that Parliament can rule out No Deal is to revoke Article 50, and a large majority of MPs aren't even willing to raise that possibility.

                              The motion that is in process reportedly would require the PM to seek an extension if there was no deal by late October, but it seems increasingly likely to me that multiple EU states would simply tell the UK to get stuffed (and only a single such state is needed).

                              Comment


                                It just sums up the insular blinkered nature of the debate, on the left or right. Britain is eating itself.

                                Comment


                                  Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                  This "ruling out" stuff is absolute bollocks.

                                  The only way that Parliament can rule out No Deal is to revoke Article 50, and a large majority of MPs aren't even willing to raise that possibility.

                                  The motion that is in process reportedly would require the PM to seek an extension if there was no deal by late October, but it seems increasingly likely to me that multiple EU states would simply tell the UK to get stuffed (and only a single such state is needed).
                                  It's not about preventing No Deal per se, it's about preventing the new Tory leader from proroguing Parliament.

                                  Comment


                                    Perhaps, but that hasn't been the focus of the reporting (presumably reflecting briefing) at all

                                    Comment


                                      Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                      You do realise it is possible to get changes in a treaty that hasn't been ratified yet, while it is impossible to re-open one that has already been passed. These are not remotely the same thing. Ireland getting the EU to slightly reshape the future, is just on a different level to Cameron trying to get the EU to rewrite the rules on Freedom of movement, simply because he doesn't understand them.

                                      It's not so easy to stitch up the rerun of a referendum in a country with 66 million people than it is in a country with under 5 million.Nor has the Uk been granted the kinds of special treatment that the Irish were given

                                      But you're not re-running the same referendum, you're asking people whether or not they want a no-deal brexit, a withdrawal agreement brexit, or maybe just forget about the whole thing as a bad idea. It's not the same referendum, because we've now actually seen what is on offer and it's not what anyone voted for. It would be the easiest thing in the world to say "We have had the same three options in front of us for the last 18 months and parliament can't resolve them. The People got us into this mess, and the people can fucking get us out of it."
                                      Last edited by The Awesome Berbaslug!!!; 11-06-2019, 17:16.

                                      Comment


                                        Originally posted by ursus arctos View Post
                                        Perhaps, but that hasn't been the focus of the reporting (presumably reflecting briefing) at all
                                        Reflecting the focus of the British media

                                        Comment


                                          I
                                          Originally posted by Diable Rouge View Post

                                          After the Irish referenda, the government of the time examined why they failed, discovered it was due to (irrelevant to the actual topic) concerns about neutrality and abortion, went to Brussels with a very specific shopping list, and got the necessary opt-outs. Britain's very problem for the last three years is that there is no national consensus on either the result, or how to implement it.
                                          There is no consensus. Labour which has done most to try and establish some consensus has been relentlessly attacked for looking for consensus instead of demanding a referendum they have no way of achieving a d no guarantee of winning

                                          Comment


                                            Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post
                                            Labour which has done most to try and establish some consensus ...
                                            You must be referring to a different Labour Party to the one that I've seen in inaction over the last few years.

                                            Comment


                                              Originally posted by anton pulisov View Post

                                              For over two decades:
                                              Euro opt out
                                              Schengen opt out
                                              6 billion quid annual EU membership discount ('rebate')

                                              and now:
                                              Transition period
                                              Article 50 extension



                                              Yes, because it would seriously damage the Irish economy
                                              Historically yes, Britain has been offered special treatment.

                                              But the response to the British referendum result was very different to the Irish Referendum .

                                              Comment


                                                Good gravy.

                                                Comment


                                                  Youse tell Europe to fuck off and are surprised the 27 dont fall over themselves with concessions?

                                                  Comment


                                                    Originally posted by Nefertiti2 View Post

                                                    Historically yes, Britain has been offered special treatment.

                                                    But the response to the British referendum result was very different to the Irish Referendum .
                                                    As I said, because we had a specific set of demands.

                                                    Comment

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